Job center and mental health

atrixblue.-MFR-.

dktreesea wrote: »

Oh, if only the JCP staff with their "I'm a gym bunny and proud of it! So should you be" attitudes would take a dose of your medicine when it comes to providing a service to their clients!

So far on this thread I have read plenty about what job centre advisors are not meant/expected to do. They sound like jobsworths not worth the salaries our taxes pay them. It's about time we dumped people in the public sector with bad attitudes towards their clients and hired people with the appropriate skills. Having the appropriate training to deal sympathetically with people on JSA who have mental health issues would be high on my list of priorities.

i dont how to take your post?


or how to take your comment about how to take a dose of your medicine.

i would rather tax payers money go towards adequite indepth training to their staff to know the benefits, rather than spending money at so called first aid MH course.

i see the concept behind the thought in theory a good idea in practice and real life not so and the repurcusions of getting it wrong would be, an apology?

seven-day-weekend

dktreesea wrote: »

Oh, if only the JCP staff with their "I'm a gym bunny and proud of it! So should you be" attitudes would take a dose of your medicine when it comes to providing a service to their clients!

So far on this thread I have read plenty about what job centre advisors are not meant/expected to do. They sound like jobsworths not worth the salaries our taxes pay them. It's about time we dumped people in the public sector with bad attitudes towards their clients and hired people with the appropriate skills. Having the appropriate training to deal sympathetically with people on JSA who have mental health issues would be high on my list of priorities.

I worked in a customer facing environment (not the Jobcentre) for many years and I was polite and professional to everybody. Obviously in this sort of environment you use your own judgement and I would explain something in different terms to someone who I thought might not understand the professional language like the architects, planners and lawyers I also often had contact with.

On the whole though I found that if you were polite and professional that people were happy . If someone then had a panic attack over something I'd told them, then with all due respect, that is their problem and not mine. I had not got the time nor the qualifications to be an amateur psychologist.

I also know that JC staff take a lot of abuse from members of the public and maybe sometimes their professionalism slips a bit, I understand this too. I'm afraid I would not go out of my way to help someone who was being abusive. If the staff should have training in politeness and awareness, then so should JC clients learn how to be pleasant and polite to someone who has a difficult job to do.

I speak as someone who has had bouts of depression and the wife of someone who has suffered mental health problems, including panic attacks, for many years.

Georgiegirl256

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

I worked in a customer facing environment (not the Jobcentre) for many years and I was polite and professional to everybody. Obviously in this sort of environment you use your own judgement and I would explain something in different terms to someone who I thought might not understand the professional language like the architects, planners and lawyers I also often had contact with.

On the whole though I found that if you were polite and professional that people were happy . If someone then had a panic attack over something I'd told them, then with all due respect, that is their problem and not mine. I had not got the time nor the qualifications to be an amateur psychologist.

I also know that JC staff take a lot of abuse from members of the public and maybe sometimes their professionalism slips a bit, I understand this too. I'm afraid I would not go out of my way to help someone who was being abusive. If the staff should have training in politeness and awareness, then so should JC clients learn how to be pleasant and polite to someone who has a difficult job to do.

I speak as someone who has had bouts of depression and the wife of someone who has suffered mental health problems, including panic attacks, for many years.

Here speaks the voice of reason! Totally agree with everything you say. I worked in a customer facing job for 16 years, and dealt with every kind of person imaginable, and like you say, was polite and professional (even to those who threw abuse at me), to everyone....because, that was my job! You don't need training to deal with people with MH problems, you just need to use abit of common sense on how to deal with each individual person.

A few years back, I was off work for a month or so, suffering from panic attacks, and yes, they are debilitating sometimes, and not something to be taken lightly. I also thought of myself as being able to deal with things, so yes, they can happen to even the strongest of people, and I wouldn't wish them on anyone, but hey, guess what? I dealt with them the best I could, and then gradually went back to work part time, then worked back up to full time. Do you notice the key word in there OP? Yes, 'work', I didn't use it as an excuse to sit around claiming benefits, I went back to WORK! I didn't flit from benefit to benefit for 4 years.

You need to get the professional help you need, and get back into work, that is indeed if you really are suffering from panic attacks, if not, then you are making a mockery of those who really are suffering.

sparkycat2

busy_mom wrote: »

Yes I am a gym bunny and exercise is clinically proven to support mental health issues and obese people are more likely to suffer from depression, health issues and anxiety. I suffered from post natal depression after my second child and going back to work and exercising certainly contributed to me getting better. Exercise plays a very big part in my families life style and we are all extremely healthy, eat healthy and very rarely ill.

Rapid weight gain can also be a symptom of depression not a cause. Also many anti-depressants and anti-psychotic medications have the side-effect of rapid weight gain, and often cause obesity as a side-effect.

The mental illness of depression is not the same as normal depression. What makes it an illness is that it has a physiological faulty brain underlying cause not an environmental or psychological personality cause. Episodes of depression can have no environmental trigger at all or maybe triggered by environmental factors, but the effect it has on the brain the severity and duration of the depression is out of all proportion to the environmental trigger if there is one.

Since the mental illness of depression has a underlying physiological cause it is usually non responsive to environmental changes, walks in the countryside, exercise, falling in love, getting a job, winning the lottery, do not cure it. It is also often a different order of magnitude in terms of severity and duration, resulting in the person being unable to function.

Someone can be mentally ill depressed and not even sad as in the emotion, although sadness is more common due to the brain attributing an environmental cause to the effect. This can result in the person having a very distorted view of the significance of things that have happened or things they think they may have done wrong or extremely low self-worth, to be so so sad they must have suffered some terrible misfortune or done something terrible or be a terrible or worthless person. Suicidal thoughts may result and they may be easily pushed over the edge.

It can cause someone to be thinking so slowly they are unable to do anything, see no point in getting out of bed or being alive, lacking all motivation including to the point of self neglecting and in extreme cases even catatonic completely unresponsive.

It can cause confusion anxiety and extreme distress or in some cases paranoia and even aggression as they may be unable to think fast enough to make calm rational sense of what is happening and that causes fear and confusion panic.

It can cause obsessive behaviour due to inability to change their train of thought. They brain is stuck in a train of thought unable to think about anything else. In extreme cases it can cause delusions that completely depart from reality including hallucinations. People can have psychotic episodes in depression as well as with mania or schizophrenia.

busy_mom wrote: »

If a customer is claiming JSA then they are the ones who sign the declaration to say they are fit and able to work

Their alternative is destitution or institutionalization or suicide.

busy_mom wrote: »

if they are not they have the choice to claim ESA and face a medical.

It is not a medical it is a capability assessment, and it is not fit for purpose. Even when done correctly according to the legislation people who are blatantly not fit to work can be deemed fit for work, even people who blatantly are incapable of meeting the conditionality of JSA.

You also need to take into account fluctuating conditions, just because they were fit to work last week does not mean they are not getting ill this week, and are not fit for work this week and with mental illness they are not necessarily aware of how ill they are or competent enough to seek medical attention.

busy_mom wrote: »

No-one is forced to do anything, they chose to claim benefits its comes with conditions. I, along with many others, cannot go to work and just do as I please and expect to get paid.

If they are unable to work or unable to find employment they have no option, but to claim benefits or be destitute. They do not dictate the descriptors and points of ESA or how it treats fluctuating conditions. It is not their fault the benefit system is unfit for purpose.

Someone who is ill is not choosing to not meet the conditionality of JSA, they are unable to do so due to being ill. It is beyond their control. They are ill and should not be blamed or punished for being ill. JSA is not designed for ill people putting ill people on JSA makes it not fit for purpose, to treat the system as if it is perfect and it is the claimants fault is callous.

busy_mom wrote: »

I agree not all people are capable of full time work, the medical is saying they are capable of some work

It is not a medical. I have zero confidence in the ESA capability system correctly assigning people as far as work capability, there is a major issue with fluctuating conditions and even with permanent conditions people meeting any one of the following descriptors would be deemed fit to work, JSA, subject to JSA conditionality.

ESA descriptors and points
Mental cognitive and intellectual disabilities
11(b) Cannot learn anything beyond a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock. 9pts
12(b) Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to significan risk of (i) injury to self or others; or (ii) damage to property or possessions such that they frequently require supervision to maintain safety. 9pts
13(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time. 9pts
14(b) Cannot cope with minor planned change (such as pre-arranged change to the routine time scheduled for a lunch break), to the extent that overall day to day life is made significantly more difficult. 9pts
15(b) Is unable to get to a specified place with which the claimant is familiar, without being accompanied by another person. 9pts
16(b) Engament in social contact with someone unfamiliar to the claimant is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual. 9pts
17(c) Occasionally has uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace. 9pts

busy_mom wrote: »

they can do work experience, voluntary work anything to try to improve the skills and options along with their health.

I work full time, I do voluntary work I have two children, life is busy I have to cope to provide for my children and ensure they are bought up to see work pays. And no that does not mean I have spoilt children. We holiday every other year, have treats such as cinema when we have money but make time for parks, games, bike rides. Anything to keep motivated and happy.

You seem to think all depression is treatable via environmental change or psychological personality change. With mental illness depression, underlying physiological cause, genetic fault, faulty brain that is like trying to fix a computer that is not working due to faulty hardware by changing the software, it is not likely to work. Some of these people get so ill they kill themselves or are self neglecting or catatonic or delusional, some are long-term months to years hospital in patients, some so ill and unresponsive to drug treatment that they choose to undergo electro-shock therapy or even brain surgery.

They wish they were not ill and going off to work and the gym and holiday and volunteering, but that does not make it so. Just as a man with his legs amputated might wish to have his legs back and be able to walk and run. The way the benefit system treats the mentally ill is the equivalent to chucking a man with no legs on the floor and encouraging him to get up and walk and blaming him when he fails to do so. Diagnosis, prognosis, treatment and rehabilitation of the ill should be led by NHS medical professionals qualified to treat the person's condition. When the doctor says they are fit for work then they are fit for work. Not ATOS and the DWP and private contractors or job centre staff and a not fit for purpose benefit system with conditionality and sanctions as if they are willfully unemployed and in need of tough love to "encourage" them.

~Chameleon~

^^^^ I so wish I could thank the above post a thousand times!!! Very well said!! :T:T:T:T

Confuseddot

I would just like to stick up for the job centre staff in all my dealings with them there was only 1 who was not understanding but even then not that bad. I don't think it would be anyones ideal job to have to work in an enviroment where security guards are needed to protect you. There was a week I went to the JC where someone wasn't been verbally abused and threated. It is not the staff who set up the rules to be followed in the same way that is not the cash teller in the bank thats had all your money on bonuses. Yes there will be some who delight in causing misery for other people but you get them in all jobs. Its not their fault that ESA is not fit for purpose.

"You seem to think all depression is treatable via environmental change or psychological personality change."
The majority of people who seek treatment whether it be drugs, exercise counselling etc do see some improvement. Yes there will be some who do not respond but the same is true with most illnesses.

If you are claiming JSA and don't do what you signed up to do whether it be apply for job/training etc then its the advisor job to report this, if they don't then they will lose their job.

Troutwrestler

atrixblue.-MFR-. wrote: »

it is not the job of the JCP staff or their advisors to diagnose or offer to assist in getting treatment or there otherwise.

Someone should tell that to my loan parent advisor, she started telling me to stop my epilepsy medication if it made me too forgetful or tired. When I pointed out how dangerous that could be, she began to tell me it actually wasn't. :eek:

lukieboy96

Troutwrestler wrote: »

Someone should tell that to my loan parent advisor, she started telling me to stop my epilepsy medication if it made me too forgetful or tired. When I pointed out how dangerous that could be, she began to tell me it actually wasn't. :eek:

That is absolutely appalling!! You should complain, they are not medical professions!!

lukieboy96

sparkycat2 wrote: »

Rapid weight gain can also be a symptom of depression not a cause. Also many anti-depressants and anti-psychotic medications have the side-effect of rapid weight gain, and often cause obesity as a side-effect.

The mental illness of depression is not the same as normal depression. What makes it an illness is that it has a physiological faulty brain underlying cause not an environmental or psychological personality cause. Episodes of depression can have no environmental trigger at all or maybe triggered by environmental factors, but the effect it has on the brain the severity and duration of the depression is out of all proportion to the environmental trigger if there is one.

Since the mental illness of depression has a underlying physiological cause it is usually non responsive to environmental changes, walks in the countryside, exercise, falling in love, getting a job, winning the lottery, do not cure it. It is also often a different order of magnitude in terms of severity and duration, resulting in the person being unable to function.

Someone can be mentally ill depressed and not even sad as in the emotion, although sadness is more common due to the brain attributing an environmental cause to the effect. This can result in the person having a very distorted view of the significance of things that have happened or things they think they may have done wrong or extremely low self-worth, to be so so sad they must have suffered some terrible misfortune or done something terrible or be a terrible or worthless person. Suicidal thoughts may result and they may be easily pushed over the edge.

It can cause someone to be thinking so slowly they are unable to do anything, see no point in getting out of bed or being alive, lacking all motivation including to the point of self neglecting and in extreme cases even catatonic completely unresponsive.

It can cause confusion anxiety and extreme distress or in some cases paranoia and even aggression as they may be unable to think fast enough to make calm rational sense of what is happening and that causes fear and confusion panic.

It can cause obsessive behaviour due to inability to change their train of thought. They brain is stuck in a train of thought unable to think about anything else. In extreme cases it can cause delusions that completely depart from reality including hallucinations. People can have psychotic episodes in depression as well as with mania or schizophrenia.



Their alternative is destitution or institutionalization or suicide.



It is not a medical it is a capability assessment, and it is not fit for purpose. Even when done correctly according to the legislation people who are blatantly not fit to work can be deemed fit for work, even people who blatantly are incapable of meeting the conditionality of JSA.

You also need to take into account fluctuating conditions, just because they were fit to work last week does not mean they are not getting ill this week, and are not fit for work this week and with mental illness they are not necessarily aware of how ill they are or competent enough to seek medical attention.



If they are unable to work or unable to find employment they have no option, but to claim benefits or be destitute. They do not dictate the descriptors and points of ESA or how it treats fluctuating conditions. It is not their fault the benefit system is unfit for purpose.

Someone who is ill is not choosing to not meet the conditionality of JSA, they are unable to do so due to being ill. It is beyond their control. They are ill and should not be blamed or punished for being ill. JSA is not designed for ill people putting ill people on JSA makes it not fit for purpose, to treat the system as if it is perfect and it is the claimants fault is callous.



It is not a medical. I have zero confidence in the ESA capability system correctly assigning people as far as work capability, there is a major issue with fluctuating conditions and even with permanent conditions people meeting any one of the following descriptors would be deemed fit to work, JSA, subject to JSA conditionality.

ESA descriptors and points
Mental cognitive and intellectual disabilities
11(b) Cannot learn anything beyond a simple task, such as setting an alarm clock. 9pts
12(b) Reduced awareness of everyday hazards leads to significan risk of (i) injury to self or others; or (ii) damage to property or possessions such that they frequently require supervision to maintain safety. 9pts
13(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time. 9pts
14(b) Cannot cope with minor planned change (such as pre-arranged change to the routine time scheduled for a lunch break), to the extent that overall day to day life is made significantly more difficult. 9pts
15(b) Is unable to get to a specified place with which the claimant is familiar, without being accompanied by another person. 9pts
16(b) Engament in social contact with someone unfamiliar to the claimant is always precluded due to difficulty relating to others or significant distress experienced by the individual. 9pts
17(c) Occasionally has uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace. 9pts



You seem to think all depression is treatable via environmental change or psychological personality change. With mental illness depression, underlying physiological cause, genetic fault, faulty brain that is like trying to fix a computer that is not working due to faulty hardware by changing the software, it is not likely to work. Some of these people get so ill they kill themselves or are self neglecting or catatonic or delusional, some are long-term months to years hospital in patients, some so ill and unresponsive to drug treatment that they choose to undergo electro-shock therapy or even brain surgery.

They wish they were not ill and going off to work and the gym and holiday and volunteering, but that does not make it so. Just as a man with his legs amputated might wish to have his legs back and be able to walk and run. The way the benefit system treats the mentally ill is the equivalent to chucking a man with no legs on the floor and encouraging him to get up and walk and blaming him when he fails to do so. Diagnosis, prognosis, treatment and rehabilitation of the ill should be led by NHS medical professionals qualified to treat the person's condition. When the doctor says they are fit for work then they are fit for work. Not ATOS and the DWP and private contractors or job centre staff and a not fit for purpose benefit system with conditionality and sanctions as if they are willfully unemployed and in need of tough love to "encourage" them.

Good to see someone explain a bit more! I have BPD and it is more than 'depression' Luckily, i have a supportive mental health team!

sparkycat2

Confuseddot wrote: »

It is not the staff who set up the rules to be followed in the same way that is not the cash teller in the bank thats had all your money on bonuses. Yes there will be some who delight in causing misery for other people but you get them in all jobs. Its not their fault that ESA is not fit for purpose.

It does not matter if it is their job and they are simply implementing a system they did not design. I do not see how that absolves them of moral responsibility for their actions or the consequences of those actions. We are all answerable to our own conscience. To excuse one's actions and not be overwhelmed by feelings of guilt, remorse, is callous, inhuman.

Confuseddot wrote: »

"You seem to think all depression is treatable via environmental change or psychological personality change."
The majority of people who seek treatment whether it be drugs, exercise counselling etc do see some improvement. Yes there will be some who do not respond but the same is true with most illnesses.

The thing is the treatment has to be appropriate to be effective. For psychological cause talking therapies maybe effective, for environmental volunteer work maybe effective, for both exercise maybe effective. But for physiological caused depression, a physiological solution is needed, like drugs. The physiological cause needs to be identified and treated.

For a somewhat obtuse example how about the person presents with depression, lethargy, mental confusion, rapid weight gain. It could turn out they have Hasimotos thyroid disease, Coeliac disease, anemia. Telling them to count their blessings or coping mechanisms via talking therapies, getting them to exercise more and eat less, getting them to do volunteer work, etc. Would be completely useless. While thyroid medication, iron tablets, and a restricted diet will magically cure them of the mental symptoms of physiological illness they suffer from. The same thing applies in my opinion to the mental illness of depression, if it is physiological caused it needs appropriate treatment, which is drugs, not inappropriate and ineffective treatment, especially if failure of such treatment results in blaming the patient for not getting better.

Confuseddot wrote: »

If you are claiming JSA and don't do what you signed up to do whether it be apply for job/training etc then its the advisor job to report this, if they don't then they will lose their job.

The job centre staff I think have a lot of discretion as far as what activities they impose and if they recommend a benefit sanction. They are little gods sitting in judgement over the claimants, able to impose their will and punish or be benevolent.