Separated, how much should I provide?

twiglet98

I completely fail to understand how, why, your ex is thought to deserve any spousal maintenance. You have been apart for quite long enough for her to start earning something. She might think she's some sort of aggrieved princess - I imagine a spoilt, lazy, indulged brat, and condemn the parents who encourage her. I very much hope you get a judge who sees sense and makes it absolutely clear that real life isn't like that.

It takes two to make a marriage work. There was a reason yours didn't, and I assume she acknowledges the reason(s), but the reason(s) it failed aren't the deciding factor on the settlement.

It's high time she grew up.

duchy

I must admit that I do agree the time has passed now for SM whilst she is "finding her feet" and I'd be ending the car contract and going for a clean break as HER circumstances have now changed and she is now choosing to live with her parents.

My feeling would be she has had more than two years to set her ducks in a row , retrain etc and during that time she was supported but now with both children grown and both having lived away from her for the past year (I might hint she's now moved in with her son to imply she always lived with him through the split) and that with these changed circumstances a clean break is more appropriate .

It's perhaps time for you to make an unreasonable proposal too and let the judge decide where in the middle the two of you meet.

As she is refusing to negotiate at all perhaps it is time to allow for this and present a more modest proposal with a clean break to give a judge a middle ground to offer you both a compromise. Perhaps even offer two proposals - a much lower lump sum with a year's SM and another which is lump sum only - and remove the car completely for now. I'd add a footnote that having provided car and SM for two years you have taken this into account when calculating the figures.

Give the judge room to find compromise between what she proposes and what you are proposing -and you *could* mention you have revised your figures in view of the recent Wright case's decision in the courts.

I might also mention It is important to remember that the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 – which is the statute which governs how a family’s assets and income are divided on a divorce – makes it plain that the Court must look at bringing a married couples’ financial claims against each other to an end at the earliest possible opportunity.

19lottie82

Jack, I agree, you need to play hardball now. Your offer was more than fair, very generous in fact. It's not as if she's been unable to work for the last x years because she's been raising two little children who can't look after themselves. As others have pointed out she has done nothing to improve her earning capacity in the last two years, when she should have been.

I'd put a much lower offer in writing. She's had her chance and but her own nose off out of sheer greed.

ampersand

floxxie and duchy, what you have both just written chimes exactly with something which has gnawed at me since Jack's #2388.

'Treat this as a business transaction and remove any emotional feeling'.
and
'It's perhaps time for you to make an unreasonable proposal'
#
Jack, the moment I read #2388, I thought what a skewed sound the 'marriage' had about it[and yes, I do know from real life and every quote going that 'no-one outside a marriage can judge or know that marriage'], but why I felt[even in past-tense or snatches] no love, meeting of minds, affection, laughter, shared humour, crazy fun couple and family times, or companionship, or pleasure or even 'liking' had ever much existed just kept dinging away at me. Still does.

In your understated and decent way[as always], you wrote:

' I‘ll try and explain the scenario that led to her not working. Before the children she worked full time in an admin role for a large international well known company. While the children were younger she had a number of jobs to fit around the children such as working weekends at estate agent and as courier for Next [So far, so normal].[ Once the children were at school she got a part time (20 hours/week) job as a Teaching Assistant. She did this for around 5 years but it was getting more and more demanding [Did she realise her skills were sub-muster even then, preferring to opt out?]. She was expected to attend additional courses in her own time to reach the required level to be able cover classes to free teachers for lesson planning. She found this demanding [again, conflict re: status sought vs inability/effort/skill-set/input/ cba] and was concerned as she never wanted to be a teacher.[Fair enough. We can see this.] So at that time she came to me with a proposal [an HR appointment? 'A business proposal', as floxxie says. Was this really your 'marriage'?] Like that she wanted to stop working so she could be at home with her dog, keep on top of the domestic jobs, food shopping etc. The benefit to me [HR buy-off clause. Again, was this really your 'marriage'? No wonder you need 'out' before it's too late - and it NEVER is too late, Jack:-)] was that I wouldn’t have to do any of those jobs at the weekends except cut the grass and decorating projects etc [Jack has his job-list, his line-management, at home/at work - any difference? ]
I raised my concern of reduction of income for the household, to which she said we could manage by budgeting. So I agreed to try it [dictated? or 'anything for peace']- but to continue to see if a more suitable job came up[we know it hasn't and won't] in the meantime. She continued to do voluntary work at the school helping out a day a week and at an animal sanctuary 2 mornings a week but obviously these were not paid. Over the years since then I had encouraged her to consider jobs that came up but obviously nothing really ‘captured her imagination’. During Summer/Autumn 2013 [ex sees writing on the wall. You've been apart a year at this stage] she attended some courses to bring her office software skills up to date but didn’t want to apply for jobs in the current area as intended to move south [highlight this to Judge] is and various other reasons'........

#
I've thought about this, written and deleted a number of times.

Now that floxxie and duchy have posted, perhaps from similar mind, I heavily second their views, also as RAS, mgdavid, caroline, justme and many others have tried to convey.

Jack, from your 1st post here, 'obviously funding the family and myself is difficult on one income. The family home has no mortgage on it now so all paid for just the bills. Obviously they need to get jobs and are trying to' -

this just isn't true and perhaps never will be for ex.

Leave her to it. Let the fond parents buy her a car. It's surprising tbey haven't offered.

Save your own Life Jack. You owe it to yourself and to your children as an example.
Don't truss yourself up as some hostage to fortune. [hers]
Isn't that why you took this courageous path?

Other Love can come.
Other Life will come.
Other children may come.
Don't hamstring any possibility. Stop being 'reasonable'.

It could be a turning corner for you too: you've said you don't like what you do, but are good at it and earn well. But for what outcomes Jack?

Think. Easter's a good time for this.

Choc, blessings, head up, a good glass full, cool waves somewhere, air guitar, REAL LIFE.........
:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba:easter_ba

Jack has many eggs in many baskets.

JackRS

I will now try again to give a bit more detail. Before we saw the judge I discussed with the barrister what the judge may indicate based on his experience and knowledge of the case and actuaries report. This will get detailed with numbers ....

Liquid assets (house)
Net house sale (rounded to nearest £1k) = £292k
Less marital debts that I had when separated 292 - 6 =£286
50/50 share = 286/2 = £143k each.

Other assets (pension)
The actuaries report was complex but basically indicated to offset the difference I would need to pay her £122k. My barrister said there was no rule for discount but 30% was something he had used before so that would make it £85k.

Therefore one possible scenario to eliminate pension share would be to turn pension assets into liquid and provide a greater share of the house this could mean £143k + £85k = £228k

My barrister then suggested that some judges would consider the difference in my in income and her potential and attempt to equalise. He thought worse case was £900/m for 5 years.

We then saw the judge, a lot of things were discussed but in summary the judge indicated that she thought that maybe my ex did not need to spend so much on a house that maybe a 2 bed apartment would meet her needs. She felt it wasn't so fair for me to take on a massive mortgage at this stage of my life. Therefore her view was more of 65/35 or 70/30 split.

The judge also indicated that she felt a pension sharing order may be appropriate in this case as my exes pension fund was relatively small and at retirement would need more at that stage of life.

She also suggested that because of the difference of income considering the ex's potential earnings that maintenance until retirement may be required.

We were encouraged to try and come to an agreement for settlement.

My barristers original suggestion was to offer £200k a 10% pension share and £750/m and car for 2 years. I didn't want to start at that so instructed to suggest £500/m for 2 years.

They came back with wanting £230K £650/m and car for 6 years.

My final offer as posted earlier was £210k, no pension share £650/m and car for 3 years. Or no car and £215k. To which she couldn't agree and felt under pressure so wanted time to consider. My barrister suggested we put the offer in writing then she has 14 days to respond. If no agreement then final hearing which will be 3 - 6 months away and cost between £10k - £20k. My barrister said if it went to final hearing and the outcome was similar to the offer I could claim costs against her.

What many of you would have noticed is that the offers and counter offers don't follow the judges guidelines.

It's Saturday morning now as I write this and I'm still feeling frustrated with the cost of the process. All the documents and reports created that the judge didn't read as it was reassigned to them in the last minute. At the end of the day it just boiled down to bartering over liquid assets and maintenance.

My final offer was one I made in an attempt to get it concluded. Now like some have suggested I feel the original offer should be the one I put in writing, I don't know if that is possible but I know it won't be accepted so then the costs of the final trial will distroy any gains made although I may have more to loose as I would have final trial costs and risk judges order being more than even my final offer Thursday?

From her point of view will she consider the additional costs of the final trial are worth risking to better her settlement. I guess if she can get £10k more cash and a few hundred more a month for longer it will be money well spent especially as it makes me worse off.

I guess I'll need to discuss with my solicitor next week?

The other alarming information my barrister told me was he had my unpaid legal costs. My next solicitors bill which includes the FDR preparation was £5k ! So I'll be disputing that for value for money. That doesn't include actuaries report or barrister fee.

I'll look back at the other posts and answer any questions remaining.

Thanks again for all your support and comments it is a great help and comfort.

ampersand

:grouphug:

ciderwithrosie_2

Is there any chance you could sit down with your wife, just the two of you on neutral territory, and come to an agreement between you? This is what the person I know had to do in the end as neither could afford the final judge's decision hearing.

Marisco

ciderwithrosie wrote: »

Is there any chance you could sit down with your wife, just the two of you on neutral territory, and come to an agreement between you? This is what the person I know had to do in the end as neither could afford the final judge's decision hearing.

Impossible I'd have thought with a greedy %$^&* like her!!

My offer of finding you a hit man still stands Jack, and way cheaper than a barrister :D

JackRS

mgdavid wrote: »

Tip - please believe me, put the initial offer in writing, it is very generous.
Also I'm concerned that there is the potential to make commitments that you may not be able to keep up, what happens if the job disappears (takeover, re-org etc) or contract is changed and the 2nd car disappears, or you get ill and have to stop working? This *must* be written into the Financial order somehow.
They cannot take what you do not have (but they can try to take everything else)..

Thanks for your thoughts, any settlement will have conditions with trigger events such as change in my circumstances and also hers.

As I wrote earlier this morning I am wondering if I put in writing my original offer it will just mean she'll reject and final hearing with all the costs and risk of settlement being worse so not sure what to do?

enthusiasticsaver

Just a thought Jack. When they discuss your soon to be ex- wifes' earning potential do they consider her eventual inheritance from her well off parents in the mix at all?