You can cancel your Orange contract!

DamePeggy

UPDATE: 15/08/2015. EE have just offered to settle my partners SCC case on this basis - refunding £390 of the £500 we paid since she requested a cancellation. We had to take them to the small claims court, but they offered to settle as soon as we were given a court date. They have done this in everyone of of the cases where people have bothered to do this. So if you tried to cancel back in 2013 and they refused you, take them to court for the charnges they took from you since. You have nothing to lose.

UPDATE 04/08/2014: I finally got round to taking EE to the small claims court - claiming all the money I'd given them after they'd refuse my request to cancel on the basis below. They agreed to settle my claim in full (plus my costs).

UPDATE 30/07/2013: I’ve raised a second complaint with CISAS on the basis of the original (V14) terms (that the document Orange specifically reference in their terms doesn't exist). Unlike last year, CISAS are actually considering these complaints. So far two of us have received a response from Orange/EE. In both of these they've tried to argue that the change in government department, document and name of inflation index doesn't matter. Check out post #118 for a good arguement to use against this.

They've also attempted to argue that this is a complicated matter of law (see posts aroud #100ish for why this is nonsense - basically it's a consumer contract and as such it should not require complicated legal interpretation, and it's up to EE to ensure that it shouldn't in the first place).

My first CISAS complaint - that EE had changed my Ts&CS - was rejected on the grounds that I had not presented sufficient evidence in my complaint that Orange had changed my Ts&Cs from Version 14 to Version 15. See my comment #74 below for more details. I still think that a claim can be made on the basis of the change in Ts&Cs alone, but you must include more evidence than i did to prove that orange have used the new terms in your dealings with them - read on for more details.

UPDATE: 07/05/2013: I have posted some advice for people who want to take their complaint to CISAS later this thread (post number #71). This advice is for people who didn't get their price-rise cancellation request in within a month of the notification letter - but it also will be useful for people who did too.

UPDATE 29/04/2013: I have just received Orange's defence to my CISAS complaint that they have changed our Ts&Cs without telling anyone Their defence is that they indeed did not tell me (or anyone else for that matter) about the changes in wording of the Ts&Cs. I am therefore, they say, still bound by the original Feb 2011 Ts&Cs (faulty clause and all) and so have no grounds to cancel due to change in Ts&Cs.

So essentially they have admitted to misinforming EVERY customer who has called them by reading out a set of terms that they now accept don't actually apply to anyone. The Ts&Cs they still have posted on their site are completely worthless too - this has to be an Offcom/Fair Trade matter now surely.

See #59 for a bit more about this.



It IS possible to cancel your Orange contract if you are unhappy with their recent price increases - providing you took your contract out before November last year as they changed their Ts&Cs without telling anyone.

Tom Forth has published correspondence showing how this is done on his site at tomforth dot co dot uk slash orange (I'm not able to post links I'm afraid).

Orange's customer.services email is not working - so get a letter off to them soon to avoid disappointment (I've sent an email to their CEO just to be sure...).


UPDATE:

Following some of the comments I've received below, and after receiving a reply from Orange, I've decided to update my post to, I hope, to make the situation a bit clearer. There is a link to a copy of the original terms and conditions in the comments below (thanks D123!).

UPDATE 2:

I have now made a formal claim with CISAS, the arbitration service that Orange use (as recommended by Offcom) and Orange have 14 days (from 12th April) to reply to my complaint. I will let you all know how I get on with it. If you want to follow suit, make sure that you make it clear that you want to cancel your contract not just because of the price rise itself, but because Orange have also changed your terms and conditions to your detriment and you have the right to cancel under the terms you agreed. (Otherwise Orange may try to tell you that the price-rise is a 'business decision' and so not in CISAS's remit).


I’d really like a legal opinion on this, but I think the logic is sound and it’s the course I’m following now.

Your grounds to cancel can be summarised like this:

1. When you took out your contract with Orange, they included a clause that would allow you to cancel your contract , without fee, if they changed the terms to your detriment.
2. Orange then changed the terms, without informing anyone, to include a clause that allows them to increase their prices in a way that would not be allowed under the wording of the old terms and have also restricted the terms under which you can cancel.
3. The price increases (and therefore the clauses) are to your detriment.
4. Your terms and conditions have been changed to your detriment.
5. You may there cancel your contract without penalty..
Here’s a a longer explanation...

If you took out a pay monthly Orange contract between February 2011 and the end of October 2012 (and possibly into November 2012) you would have agreed to terms and conditions that would allow you to cancel your contract without fee if Orange changed their terms to your detriment.

Orange 'updated' their terms for new customers on 1st November 2012, but also sometime around then, , retrospectively altered the terms for customers who signed up earlier. They did so by replacing the document on their website. It appears that they made no effort to tell anyone about this or do draw their attention to the changes in terms..

[If anyone has any evidence that Orange informed them that they made these changes I'd be very interested to hear as I have no record of them telling me - either on my bills, by letter, or by text. Orange have told me over the phone that they have not given any notification in the change in terms. The also have not disputed this with the person who has used this as grounds to cancel shown n Tom Forth's website. To confirm this I have asked the CEO's office at Orange to provide me with evidence that they offered any such notification - but they have so far ignored this request. I think it it therefore pretty reasonable to assume that no such notification has been given.]

Orange made two changes relevant to their recent price increases:

Firstly they have changed an unenforceable clause that relied upon a single statistic, from a specific (long defunct) government department (that shut its doors in 1996), to one that allows them to pick and choose between a number of measures of inflation from a range of government agencies. The fact that they are using this new clause to stop you from cancelling without charge after their recent price increase confirms that the change is to your detriment.

Secondly, they have now included the term ‘material detriment’ in the clause that allowed you previously to cancel your contract. Under the terms you actually agreed you simply had to show 'detriment'. This one gives me a bit of a headache thinking about it, but basically in your original terms all you had to demonstrate is that you would be worse off, but under the new terms you now have to show that a change in terms would affect you to an amount greater than an unspecified level (that's not been well defined by Offcom or anyone else as far as I can see). In making it harder to show you have been harmed by the terms, this change is to your detriment.

These both strike me as more than simple re-wordings and, as they are now using the new term to justify their recent price hikes (they have used both in communication with me), the effect of these terms are clearly detrimental. This will allow you to cancel your contract with no fee, under the terms of the version of clause 4.3. that you signed up to (extracts copied below with comments).

Do not be fobbed off by Orange referring to Offcom guidelines - you did not sign those, you signed Orange’s contract – the fact that Orange chose to word their contract in words more favourable to you than the current Offcom guidelines require, is neither here nor there – you have the right to cancel under the terms that you agreed.

Also do not let them rely on ‘material detriment’ – although Offcom guidelines now allow them to use this clause and they appear in the new version of the Ts&Cs, the term ‘material detriment’ does not appear anywhere in the Ts&Cs that you agreed – they simply include the term ‘detriment’ (which is much easier to demonstrate – which is very likely why Orange favours the more liberal term ).

So the course I've taken is to write to, and email, Orange giving them written notice that I want to cancel my contract under the terms and conditions that I agreed as they have changed the terms and conditions to my detriment (for the reasons I've noted above). I have told them that I expect acceptance of this cancellation, and a PAC code, within the 14 days specified in my original terms and conditions. I do not accept that I am bound by any terms of the new set of Ts&Cs as they took no steps to inform me of the change – likewise I am not bound by the one-month limit in their Ts&Cs as no written notification was given (which is contrary to Offcom guidelines – although they use the slippery 'material detriment' term).

I told them that if I hear no more from them by the end of the 14 day period I will be cancelling my payment immediately and will be liable to no further charges to them under the terms of my contract. I will remove my pone from the Orange network and make no further payments.
I am currently in the 14 day notice period and am awaiting their response.
If you would like to follow this course, I would suggest you tell them that you are doing so now as you have only just had your attention drawn to the changes as they made no effort to tell you. You are informing them at your first opportunity.

Best of luck!

FYI – the original clauses 4.3. and 4.3.1 (copied straight from the PDF).

“4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we vary its terms, resulting in an excessive increase
in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this Contract to your detriment. In such
cases you would need to give us at least 14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and
within one month of us telling you about the changes). However this option does not apply if: “

[Except they did not give any written notice of these changes - so I cannot see how you could be bound by the one month restriction – write to them and tell then you want to cancel for the reasons I’ve mentioned above]

“4.3.1 we have increased the Charges by an amount equal to or less than the percentage increase
in the All Items Index of Retail Prices published by the Central Statistical Office in the Monthly
Digest of Statistics in any 12 month period;”

This statistics office closed in 1996 and the digest mentioned has not been published by any government department since September 2011 – so this clause is faulty and unenforceable.

The new versions of these clauses back-dated from October 2012 (that Orange are currently using to stop people from cancelling without fee) read as follows :
“terminating your Contract because Orange has changed its terms
4.3 You may also terminate your Contract if we give you written notice to vary its terms,
resulting in an increase in the Charges or changes that alter your rights under this
Contract to your material detriment. In such cases you would need to give us at least
14 days written notice prior to your Billing Date (and within one month of us giving
you written notice about the changes). However this option does not apply if:
4.3.1 we give you written notice to increase the Charges (as a percentage) by an amount
equal to or less than the percentage increase in the All Items Index of Retail Prices or
any other statistical measure of inflation published by any government body
authorised to publish measures of inflation from time to time, and published on a date
as close as reasonably possible before the date on which we send you written notice; “

[A much more extensive set of figures from which Orange can choose – and now have chosen.]n

ZhugeEX

http://www.tomforth.co.uk/orange/

Here is the link for people to click rather then mess around with the above.

Cheers for the post Peggy, it'll be useful for a lot of people.

DamePeggy

Thanks for posting the link ZhugeEx - it's scandalous that Oranges customer services email is out of action when these price rises are being put into effect (although their phone staff will still tell you to email them there).

For reference their Customer services postal address is:

Orange Customer Services
PO Box 10
Patchway
Bristol
BS32 4BQ

robbies_gal

he says pretty sure u can cancel your contract its not a given-alot of people have had theyre plans changed or reduced though-got a fiver off mine just this week

candystick

Has anyone tried this and been successful ?

DamePeggy

According to the correspondence linked to on Tom's site - at least one person has had success with this.

I am currently in correspondence with Orange on this issue, having emailed their CEO as his email was the only operating email address I could find for Orange in the UK (found with !!!!!!!!!!!!!).


They have responded by saying that their current Ts&Cs are in line with Offcom's guidelines, which allow an increase below RPI, as this is considered not to be to my 'material detriment'.

That's all very well and good, but they have ignore the issue that, regardless of Offcom guidelines, they are not the terms that I signed up to -and that they have changed their Ts&Cs without telling me (or anyone else). This gives me grounds to cancel my contract under their Ts&Cs (look for for clause 4.3), just as the person on Tom's site has. I've requested a PAC code within 14 days.

I'll let you know if I get any meaningful response.

If you signed up prior to November 2012, I'd suggest a first step would be to email (and possibly also write to) them with a request to cancel your contract on the basis that they have altered your contract to your detriment, and that you were given no chance to agree to or reject to the new terms. This will at least make sure you get something to them writing within their 30 day period, and see what response you get.

gjchester

DamePeggy wrote: »

According to the correspondence linked to on Tom's site - at least one person has had success with this.

If you read the site they have not really had a success, the folks have threatened Orange with court and Orange have declined to attend.

It has the same result as winning but it's not legally the same. If enough people try this route then Orange may choose to defend the cases.


As I mentioned in your prior thread forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4504489 you would need to pay any early termination fee then sue them for the early termination fee back, the small claim court will not usually compensate you for something that has not yet happened. (ie you can't sue for a charge that has not yet been charged)

DamePeggy

Thanks for your response to this and my other post.

I understand that Orange declining to defend is not the same legally, for them, as losing the case. Until Orange bother to try to defend themselves in such circumstances though, then this issue is always going to be moot.

Until Orange properly respond to how they have been handling this issue with respect to their own terms and conditions (and not just referring simply to Offcom's guidelines), I will continue with this course of action - following the lines of the person who has reported success.

Which is to give them notice that I am going to cancel, my grounds for doing so, how I will do so in lines with their Ts&Cs, and await their response.

oopsadaisydoddle

I still don't understand. Have they actually changed their T&C's though? Is it just the wording they have changed re: the government body? And does this actually constitute a change of terms from a legal point of view?

DamePeggy

I'm afraid I can't say for definite in a legal sense whether this constitutes a change it Ts&Cs - that's one of the reasons why I posted here.

However, I would say that replacing a clause that included a solitary measure of inflation from a single, defunct, government department, and replacing it with one that gives Orange the right to pick and choose between a range of inflation measures and agencies is rather more than a simple change in wording.

I'm also concerned that they chose to make these changes without telling anyone.

Tony5101

DamePeggy - could you check your PM's please? Thx - Tony