You can cancel your Orange contract!

moombamike

DamePeggy wrote: »

I have received a reply from Orange and, even after all my dealings with them, I’ was frankly surprised by it’s brazen opportunism.

Their defence can be summarised as follows:
• They did indeed not send any specific notification about their changes in the pre-October 2012 Ts&Cs.
• I am therefore still covered by the original Febrary 2011 Ts&Cs. i.e. The ones with the long-defunct government agency and the non-existent publication.
• As my CISAS complaint was on the basis that my Ts&Cs had changed, there were no grouns upon which I can make a claim for a detrimental change.

This is despite:
• Me (like everyone else), being read the new Ts&Cs when I called to complain.
• They have changed the docs on their website – and are pointing people to them.
• Them attempting to justify the terms on ‘material detriment’ terms.
• Their email responses which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that they thought I was bound by the new terms (including this for example: “I appreciate that you state that you were not aware of the amendment to the wording of Clause 4.3.1 however this does not affect your liability under the Terms. “).

I made a big fuss about whether or not Orange had sent written notification of the Ts&Cs as I thought they would use it to say that I only had a month to cancel after the notification – It never occurred to me that they would just say you were right, but we don’t care, we’ll just keep reading people terms to which they’ve never agreed.

I’ll have to think about where to go with this now.

Is this in response to your CISAS case? Don't CISAS have to then rule based on all this evidence? Or is that it now?

Thanks for sharing

DamePeggy

moombamike wrote: »

Is this in response to your CISAS case? Don't CISAS have to then rule based on all this evidence? Or is that it now?

This is the defence that they are offering to my CISAS claim. I now have a week to reply to this and then their adjudicator will make a decision.

I was in two minds about posting this before they had made a decision as I'm not entirely sure whether or not I'm allowed to disclose it under the CISAS terms, but the CISAS decision could now take anything up to eight weeks (although I hope it will be sooner).

I thought that it was worth sharing that, when challenged, Orange are willing to say that actually the amemded Ts&Cs (that they're quoting to customers who call and are currently on their website for the dates in question) don't actually apply to anyone at all.

Zelazny

I have an Orange contract dating from April 2012, but only cottoned on to this today - is it too late for me to complain and try for cancellation?

DamePeggy

Zelazny wrote: »

I have an Orange contract dating from April 2012, but only cottoned on to this today - is it too late for me to complain and try for cancellation?

It could well be too late for you to cancel on the basis on the price increase I'm afraid as the cut-off was a month after the written notification.

I think there are grounds still for people to make a claim under the change in Ts&Cs - you just have to find a way to get Orange to confirm to you that they think you are under the new version of the Ts&Cs - I'll put a longer post up about this shortly.

DamePeggy

I've now replied to Orange's defence to my CISAS complaint and the details will now be sent to one of their adjudicators.

Orange didn't offer any specific defence to my claim that their terms had changed to my detriment – they just said that they disagreed – let's hope that CISAS don't agree with them.


I think I offered more than enough evidence that they had, contrary to what they were trying to argue, communicated to me that they had changed my terms to the ones on their website.

I would suggest that anyone who wants to make this complaint with Orange should give them a call and get them to read out clause 4.3 and 4.3.1 of the terms and conditions that apply to them – and get them to confirm that they apply to you. This information should be sufficient to prove that Orange have changed your Ts&Cs from Version 14A (linked to previously in this thread) to Version 15 (which are the ones on their website). You can then write to Orange making your case that they've changed your Ts&Cs and that you have a right to cancel without fee on that basis. You can tell the new terms (version 15) as they include the term 'material detriment' and contain refernces to a number of government agences (see my first post above).

Be prepared for Orange to defend their corner – but don't expect them to be consistent or straightforward in doing so. They only confirmed which version of the Ts&Cs they thought I was under once I'd made my CISAS complaint (and I'm not sure I was able to add an more evidence at that stage).

They also, laughably, claimed that they only keep a note of what version of the terms customers are under, but that they don't keep a copy. This is clearly rubbish -they’ve got dozens of 'legacy' terms on their website – quite how they thought they could get away with that is completely beyond me.

So I wrote again to their CEO asking a series of specific, plainly worded, questions raised by their defence. Specifically asking them what terms they considered all of their pre-October customers to be bound by – the ones on their website that they're quoting to everyone who calls, or the ones we signed up to (that they're trying to argue that I am bound by now). I also asked why the original terms were not available on the website and what steps they would take to make sure that they gave their customers the correct information in future.



I got a reply saying that all their terms and conditions are on their website – directly contradicting what they had said in their CISAS defence – it's just the original ones that aren't there. They completely ignored all my other question and instead answered a series of their own questions about whey they had written to people about the price-rise.

Best of luck!

powerful_Rogue

Be very interesting to see what CISAS make of the situation.

Orange have refused to cancel my partners contract and stated they will not communicate any further with her, so now looking to take this to CISAS.

Any tips on the application at all?

DamePeggy

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

Be very interesting to see what CISAS make of the situation.

Orange have refused to cancel my partners contract and stated they will not communicate any further with her, so now looking to take this to CISAS.

Any tips on the application at all?

I'll knock up a check-list of some things you'll need to include this evening - are you trying to cancel on the basis of the change in Ts&Cs or the unenforceable RPI terms?

powerful_Rogue

DamePeggy wrote: »

I'll knock up a check-list of some things you'll need to include this evening - are you trying to cancel on the basis of the change in Ts&Cs or the unenforceable RPI terms?

Thanks DP.

Trying to cancel on the basis of the change in T&C's.

moombamike

Trying to get a deadlock letter from Orange - my original CISAS claim was sent back as there wasn't proof of the dispute going on more than 8 weeks

When I do I'll be going to CISAS and clearly stating that the reason is two-fold - and that both points are valid claims for termination individually:

1) The unenforceable price rise - using a government statistics agency outside of what is permitted in my original T&C's
2) The change in terms and conditions attempting to make the price rise legitimately permissible

If Orange counter and say that they have not changed my T&C's then point 1 remains valid.

In order to nullify point 1, they need to say that the terms and conditions changed.

Will let you know how I get on.

DamePeggy

Here's my advice for Orange customers who didn't get in a cancellation request in time on the basis of the faulty RPI figure (which you probably had to do within a month of the price-rise notification). This advice relates to making a CISAS complaint once Orange have either sent you a deadlock letter (which is unlikely) or broken off communication with you. Copy emails to olaf.swantee@ee.co.uk (the CEO to make sure you can prove that they have been received).

A: First I made the case that they'd changed the Ts&Cs - use this if you like - and add to it if you think there's anything missing:
Orange have changed the terms and conditions of my pay-monthly mobile phone contract and are now refusing my right to cancel my contract, without fee, as it expressly allowed under the terms of the contract that I agreed.

I signed my contract in #### from #### and received a copy of the Terms and Conditions at the time.

At some point since then, Orange changed the wording of the terms. It is not clear when they changed them, but for customers who signed up prior to 31st October 2012 (including me) they are now quoting Version 15 of the terms.

The terms and conditions to which I signed (which I understand are Version 14A) allow me to cancel my contract if Orange change the Terms to my detriment (Clause 4.3).

Orange have changed the Ts&Cs in two ways that are demonstrably to my detriment:

1. They have changed clause 4.3.1. – which previously allowed them to put up their prices on the basis of a non-existent rate of inflation and was therefore unenforceable as it referred specifically to a government agency and publication that did not exist when my contract was agreed. Under the new clause Orange now want the right to pick and choose between an unspecified range of government agencies and measures, rather than a single, specific (and defunct) statistic. Even if the statistic stated in the original terms existed and the clause was enforceable, this broadening of options for them would be to my detriment.

They have recently used the new wording to reject the claims of many customers (including me) who have contacted them regarding their recent price-rises.

[Orange’s behaviour and correspondence with other individuals (available at https://www.tomforth.co.uk/orange) gives very strong evidence that Orange recognise that the original term was indeed unenforceable].

2. Orange have also changed clauses 4.3 and 15 (and possibly others) in the new terms to now restrict my future rights to cancel should they make any further changes as I now would have to demonstrate that changes are to my ‘material detriment’ rather than simple 'detriment' in the original terms. By definition this clause is harder to prove – so the changes are to my detriment and I have every right to cancel under the terms of my original contract.



B: Then tell CISAS when you made your request to cancel and how you did it (you have to have contacted Orange in writing). Then point out how they broke off correspondence with you.

C: Then, given that Orange are trying to argue that as they haven’t actually specifically notified me (and it’s fair to assume anyone else) of the change in terms, that my contract is still under the original terms I’d recommend that you try to include whatever evidence you can that they have told you that the Ts&Cs have changed. Bear in mind that Orange will likely simply not reply to perfectly straightforward and direct questions on this issue.

The clause of the original Orange Ts&Cs that relate to this (clause 16) reads:
“16 Customer Communication
please read all the information we send you
16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is
mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and/or made available to
Customers with their e-bill on Your Account and is available on request from us. You are
asked to read your Customer Communications and to keep those which are mailed to you
until they are superseded. We regard you as having been given any information if it is either:
a) included in a mailing addressed to you,
b) by voicemail, email, text or other form of electronic message sent by us to your Device,
c) communicated directly by any means (including any information made available to Customers
with their e-bills).”

I have argued that Orange telling me over the phone that the new wording applies to me, with me asking specifically whether they did, was enough to satisfy part C – ‘communicated directly by any means.”

State the time and dates when you called (your phone will hopefully still have these in their call logs) – you could ask for transcripts of these calls, but that may delay matters further and it should be up to Orange to produce these if they want to dispute your account anyway.

You should point out that the link on Orange’s website for Ts&Cs for customers who signed up between February 2011 and October 31st 2012 links only to the new (Version 15) wording and that the original ones (Version 14A) are not available there. If they told you over the phone, or better still in an email, that your terms were on the website, then you could use this as further proof that they’ve ‘communicated directly’ that the Ts&Cs were changed as only the new ones are available there. Also note that there are lots of ‘legacy’ Ts&Cs on the site for other pay-monthly contracts for people who have signed up at different times. (You could save the Ts&Cs webpage itself and include it in your evidence if you want to be thorough).

I did ask Orange specifically to state which terms they thought I was under on more than one occasion and they’ve simply ignore my questions – so if they refuse to confirm for you then I would also made reference to this in your CISAS complaint as the Ts&Cs above say that information should be available on request.


Make sure you make it clear that your complaint is about the change in Ts&Cs and contractual issues – not just the price-rise itself (in their defence Orange have tried to argue that my complaint was spurred by the price-rise that it shouldn’t be considered by CISAS – I don’t think this stands up, but make it clear why your complaining just in case.

E: Point out that you asked to cancel as soon as you became aware of the change in Ts&Cs – given that no written notification was given you cannot be outside of the one month cut off in the Ts&Cs (clause 4.3).


F: The CISAS form asks you what you would like from Orange – and I asked for more than one thing. I can’t remember the exact options now, but you can ask for an apology, financial compensation, an explanation, and range of other options. I asked for an apology, a PAC code (with no fee), and a claim for financial compensation for the full amount that I would have to pay for the remainder of my Orange contract. The CISAS rules mean that you can't increase the amount of a financial claim at later date. I explained this total sum, by saying that as Orange were refusing my contractual rights to cancel, that I was now paying my monthly instalments under duress as I needed to be able to transport my number to a contract elsewhere. I said that I thought it was therefore perfectly reasonable to request a refund for each of the monthly instalments that Orange had taken and were going to take from me after the date on which I had notified them of my request to cancel.
I would accept an amount on this basis rather than the full amount immediately.

The evidence you should include (1 to 4 are essential ):

1. The original (version 14A) Ts&Cs - which can be downloaded from a link earlier on this thread or from Tom Forth's website.
2. The new Ts&Cs from Orange's website.
3. Copies of any email correspondence you have with them - draw attention to any replies when Orange have pointed to the new Ts&Cs - and to any examples where they haven't replied to direct questions (which will likely be quite often).
4. Dates and times of any phone calls you made to them that you're using in your case.
5. I also sent a copy of the success correspondence from J. Akers that's on Tom's website too.
6. Possibly a screen shot of the Ts&Cs page of their website (just in case they try to argue that they don't keep any old Ts&Cs).

I think that's about it.

Expect Orange to use the full two weeks they are allowed to reply to your CISAS complaint, but check after a week or so anyway. You'll then have a further seven days to reply to whatever weasely and contradictory cobblers they come up with to defend themselves - let us know what they say.

Very best of luck!