You can cancel your Orange contract!

DamePeggy

oopsadaisydoddle wrote: »

Did you say you had a response from the Executive office? And were they helpful?

I did get a reply from the Executive Office, but no it wasn't helpful.

They said that the customer.service email closure was nothing to do with the price rises (well they would wouldn't they).


They then said that the price rise was in line with Offcom guidelines as it was not to my 'material detriment' so I could only cancel with a fee -a nd would I like to pay it? They also said that although I was not aware of the change in the terms I was still bound by them.

I replied pointing out that my contract didn't include the term material detriment and again asked them to tell me precisely when they changed my terms to include the term and to provide me with proof that they had made any effort to to tell me (or anyone else).

I then told them that as they had now admitted that I was bound by the news terms that I wanted to cancel under their clause (4.3) which allows this and requested a PAC code within 14 days.

I await their response.

oopsadaisydoddle

DamePeggy wrote: »

I did get a reply from the Executive Office, but no it wasn't helpful.

They said that the customer.service email closure was nothing to do with the price rises (well they would wouldn't they).


They then said that the price rise was in line with Offcom guidelines as it was not to my 'material detriment' so I could only cancel with a fee -a nd would I like to pay it?

I replied pointing out that my contract didn't include the term material detriment and again asked them to tell me precisely when they changed my terms to include the term and provide to proof that they had told me (or anyone else) and that I wanted a PAC code within 14 days.

I await their response.

I see! Keep us posted!

ETA, I though the terms did include 'material detriment' previously and it was just the bit a out which statistic office was relevant.

DamePeggy

I've just had a reply from Orange to my request to cancel without fee.

In response to my specific request for them to tell me what steps they took, if any, to tell anyone about the changes to their Ts&Cs, they said this:

“Any revisions to the wording of our Terms and Conditions are made available to customers via our website, as was the case in October 2012. Please see clause 16.1 of our Terms and Conditions for details of your responsibilities regarding Customer Communications.”
Their inability to give information as to how and when they notified anyone is tacit admittance that none was actively given. Their answer implies, ludicrously, that customers might somehow have the responsibility to periodically check the Ts&Cs just on the off-chance that they've changed them. However, the clause that they pointed to does not show any such responsibilities for customers to actively check - they all require Orange to offer some kind of active notification (as to Offcom guidelines).

Can anyone else say if this clause gives Orange the right just to change a document on their site without telling anyone? I can't for the life of me see how it does:

“16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is

mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and/or made available to

Customers with their e-bill on Your Account and is available on request from us. You are

asked to read your Customer Communications and to keep those which are mailed to you

until they are superseded. We regard you as having been given any information if it is either:

a) included in a mailing addressed to you,

b) by voicemail, email, text or other form ofelectronic message sent by us to your Device,

c) communicated directly by any means (including any information made available to Customers

with their e-bills). “

gjchester

DamePeggy wrote: »

they all require Orange to offer some kind of active notification (as to Offcom guidelines)

Guidelines are just that, not rules. There's no need for Orange to comply with guidelines although usually companies do for fear of the regulator making them law at a future date.

DamePeggy wrote: »

“16.1 We update our Customer Communication from time to time. Information on various topics is

mailed to Customers with their monthly billing statements and/or made available to

[snip]

c) communicated directly by any means (including any information made available to Customers with their e-bills). “

You already said you shredded many bills, and the notification could have been a pop up before you went into your eBill.

It could have been a text, texts usually have a validity of three days and it could have expired before it got to your phone.

Not saying these are right ways to notify customers, but it's possible they did try, and you didn't get it. Texts are an easy want to notify people it costs Orange very little compared to post.

Orange will most likely have records they sent it but you would find it hard to prove you didn't get anything, especially a few months after an event.

DamePeggy

gjchester wrote: »

Guidelines are just that, not rules. saying these are right ways to notify customers, but it's possible they did try, and you didn't get it. Texts are an easy want to notify people it costs Orange very little compared to post.

Orange will most likely have records they sent it but you would find it hard to prove you didn't get anything, especially a few months after an event.

I would agree that Orange would have records whether they did or did not send any specific notification about the change in Ts&Cs. However, I’m now as certain as I can be that none was sent for these reasons:

1. They told me explicitly over the phone that they didn’t send any.
2. They have not provided me with any evidence that they did – despite a direct written request for them to do so. All they have sent is the oblique paragraph I’ve copied in my earlier post.
3. They have not challenged others who have received PACs on the basis that no notification was given.
4. In my OP here I asked for anyone who had any records to show that Orange told them of these changes - no one has so far come up with any.
5. I did say that I’d shredded my documents – but luckily my partner keeps all of her correspondence and there’s no sign of any notice there. I can’t find any mention of it online either.

It ought to be relatively simple for them to have said ‘we sent you a text on…’ or ‘your October bill states…’ or whatever- the fact they have not done so speaks volumes.

Also the lack of any direct notification is also outside the terms of the contract I agreed (see the clause copied in my previous post), which require Orange to actively send notification before they can assume that a customer has been made aware of a change – this is important as otherwise there would be a one month cut-off period when a customer could raise an objection).

As for Offcom guidelines being just guidelines – you’re right. Strange then, that in my first response from Orange they told me that they were allowed to increase the prices on the basis that they were in iine with Offcom guidelines – and made no reference to the terms I’d actually signed up to. They seem to want to pick and choose which guidelines they want to use.

gjchester

We can discuss this all day, but you can't prove a negative.

Just because you or your partner didn't recieve anything it does not mean that you have not been notified, it could be elctronic to an old email address you gave but didnt update, in a bill insert that was disposed of, or a text or otherwise electroncially, and neither does the fact they have not told you how it was done, does not mean they didn't try.

As I said it's not very customer friendly but they will have lawyers that have made sure it's within the letter of the law if not the spirit.

I suspect the only way you'll get this progressed is to pay the fee and sue them for the fee back and see if they arrive in court. They probalby won't but thats the risk you take.

chanz4

we had a text message

DamePeggy

chanz4 wrote: »

we had a text message

Thanks - can you let us know when they sent them out? I've checked all that I've received from Orange since the beginning of October and none have mentioned a change in terms. My partner signed up in October and received the old Ts&Cs, and she's not had a text either.

DamePeggy

gjchester wrote: »

We can discuss this all day, but you can't prove a negative.

Just because you or your partner didn't recieve anything it does not mean that you have not been notified, it could be elctronic to an old email address you gave but didnt update, in a bill insert that was disposed of, or a text or otherwise electroncially, and neither does the fact they have not told you how it was done, does not mean they didn't try.

As I said it's not very customer friendly but they will have lawyers that have made sure it's within the letter of the law if not the spirit.

I suspect the only way you'll get this progressed is to pay the fee and sue them for the fee back and see if they arrive in court. They probalby won't but thats the risk you take.

You’re right – proving the negative is likely to be difficult – although one might argue that it’s so easy for Orange to prove the positive from their point of view that their failure to do so puts the onus on them to prove that they’ve actually sent something.

It’s still not actually the reason why customers can cancel their contracts without fee – which is that Orange have significantly changed their terms and conditions demonstrably to their customers detriment (by inclusion of the ‘material detriment’ term).

As for your comment that Orange will have lawyers checking everything for the letter of the law – that rather makes you wonder how they managed to include a clause referring to a government department that hadn’t existed for over a decade.

As for having to pay-up and go to the small claims court – I very likely will, but I’m giving Orange every chance to honour the terms agreed first.

DamePeggy

Here’s an update on my progress with taking this forward with Orange – essentially they’re continuing to obfuscate and obstruct.

They have failed to address any of my specific requests for information about whether, when and how they informed their customers about the change in the Ts&Cs.
.
They have failed to address my specific points about how the change in wording is (cleary) to my detriment. They simply said, blandly, that I had no grounds to cancel my contract and that further emails may not be responded to.

So I asked them for a ‘deadlock letter’ which would facilitate me raising a complaint with the CISAS, the arbitration service to whom they are signed (which follows the route recommended by Offcom). They have declined this on the sole grounds that the price rise was ‘a business decision’ so it falls outside the remit of the arbitration service.

I can’t imagine how they ever though that such an excuse would be acceptable – firstly it ignores the fact that, all along, I’ve been complaining about the change in Ts&Cs and not just the price-rise itself, but it also begs the question on what grounds anyone could ever go to arbitration with them?
Would they have to prove that Orange did something for any other reason than ‘business’? For a laugh perhaps? For better or worse, they are a flaming business!

I’m taking a complaint to CISAS anyway, and making further investigations about taking them to court.