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Cancelled Subscription via Paypal - Can I be forced to pay?
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The CAB referred me onto the Citizens Advice Consumer Service who referred me to the Legal Ombundsman who referred me back to the CAB Consumer Service.
They advised me that the Legal Care T&C's could be seen as unenforceable in the eyes of the law because any T&C's for services offered should be easily and publicly accessible on their website for use by the media, for example. The T&C's for LegalCare's services are ONLY accessible by gong through the sign up process.
Furthermore, during the sign up process, while it may be clear that the T&C's are available to download, it is NOT clear that these differentiate or contain further conditions from those set out on every page of their website. Some people may go on to read them, but I and many others ticked the box in good faith that the T&C's we had already read (on their website) were the terms we were agreeing to.
I have also been advised similar in an initial consultation with a local solicitor who told me that Legal Care are unlikely to win on these grounds should it go to court.
Exactly what my solicitor advised me of too; I only wish I'd gone to them in the first place as I would never have got into this situation
Danie1le, if you've not been keeping dated screenshots of their website I'd be happy to provide you with copies at a later date, if required. Same goes for anyone else, although I'd still strongly urge you to make your own for the time it takes!0 -
Danie1le can you demonstrate and prove what changes have been made to the legalcare website?
Worthwhile pointing out that in a small claim's court you don't have to prove anything - it's all decided on the balance of probabilities, not beyond all reasonable doubt.
LegalCare would also have to provide detailed technical logs of site updates in evidence to the court, if they wanted to dispute the evidence provided by the defendant. (Speaking as a web designer that has had experience in court over such matters)0 -
Worthwhile pointing out that in a small claim's court you don't have to prove anything - it's all decided on the balance of probabilities, not beyond all reasonable doubt.
LegalCare would also have to provide detailed technical logs of site updates in evidence to the court, if they wanted to dispute the evidence provided by the defendant. (Speaking as a web designer that has had experience in court over such matters)
I've pointed out you were wrong about the T@C's hyperlink...it was there 10-14 days ago and easily visable...you claim it changed and you have daily screen shots. Show them.So now you are web designer (who missed a easily visible hyperlink) who claims to have experience in Court over such matters? Is that the same person who claims there is a non existant cancellation process? When it was pointed out there is one what was your answer?0 -
The main difference I can see is the disclaimer they have added to the footer of their website.Danie1le can you demonstrate and prove what changes have been made to the legalcare website?
"The LegalCare service is offered on the basis of a 14 day free trial. If you do not notify us that you wish to cancel within the 14 day trial period you will then enter into a 12 month subscription"
This was not there previously which you can see evidence of in Eversir's screenshot posted here - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=60591623&postcount=52
Thank you. I haven't up until now but I have been keeping an eye on their website since the change they made last week. I will be keeping screenshots from now on.Danie1le, if you've not been keeping dated screenshots of their website I'd be happy to provide you with copies at a later date, if required. Same goes for anyone else, although I'd still strongly urge you to make your own for the time it takes!0 -
So YOU can't provide proof of any significant changes, eversir can't provide proof that there isn't a cancellation process...negotiate. Call me as a witness...please!0
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Personally, I would consider including a disclaimer about the service subscription on a home page that previously stated nothing about any type of subscription as significant.So YOU can't provide proof of any significant changes
While I can't personally provide proof yet - even though it is there in that screenshot, there is a good chance Paul Careless may acknowledge the change when he replies to my letter.0 -
This was not there previously which you can see evidence of in Eversir's screenshot posted here - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=60591623&postcount=52
The two screenshots prove nothing - the first only shows the bottom half of the page. Who is to say that the disclaimer wasn't originally at the top of the page and they've subsequently moved it to the bottom?.
The second isn't a real screenshot - it doesn't show that it really came from a browser viewing Legal Care's website - any competent graphics artist (or web designer
) could fake that in a couple of hours. Plus you notice the asterisk next to free trial - that would indicate that there is a footnote, which has cleverly been cropped out of this "screenshot".
Your arguments have more holes than a piece of Emmental I'm afraid.0 -
The two screenshots prove nothing - the first only shows the bottom half of the page. Who is to say that the disclaimer wasn't originally at the top of the page and they've subsequently moved it to the bottom?.
The second isn't a real screenshot - it doesn't show that it really came from a browser viewing Legal Care's website - any competent graphics artist (or web designer) could fake that in a couple of hours. Plus you notice the asterisk next to free trial - that would indicate that there is a footnote, which has cleverly been cropped out of this "screenshot".
Your arguments have more holes than a piece of Emmental I'm afraid.
Seriously, the amount of hostility show by both yourself and Slowhand would almost suggest you actually worked for LegalCare. It's now to a point where it's borderline trolling this thread.
Your comments about arguments being full of holes is complete utter tosh - you both constantly side-step and ignore the majority of the points raised by those affected to merely focus on the same old line of "you should have read the terms and conditions".
The fact is, two legal professionals have considered all the facts of this particular case independently of one another and drawn the same conclusions: LegalCare (or more accurately, Aska Professional Ltd) hasn't much of a leg to stand on, for reasons already discussed in detail. I'd take their opinion over someone who merely returns to provide vexatious and provocative comments any day.
And before you get all high-and-mighty regarding screenshots - I cropped and edited the uploaded screenshots to highlight the key points. I have the originals which show the full screen which I had to remove because it contained some of my personal info, which this forum clearly states I should avoid posting.
The software used to take the screenshot on 9th April is complete with the appropriate metadata that can be used in a court of law. Yes, the image could be faked very easily, but there are ways of determining fake and original images. Regardless, the claimant would also have to provide detailed technical data (notice this is another point you ignored) of website modification history to disprove the defendant's evidence - this CANNOT be faked unless they host on their own server, and even then it is not very easy.
Remember, this is not a criminal court. A civil court case is decided on the balance of probabilities (i.e. 51% or greater either way).0 -
Lol...found another change on LegalCare - this time however in the terms and conditions listed in the footer.
They've added this sentence into the "Terms and Conditions" clause:
"There are separate terms and conditions for our free trial and subscription service."
- That isn't present on my screenshot dated 9th April. Pretty sure any sane person has to wonder why. Think a judge would look over all these last minute with some scrutiny too. 0
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