Brighton Marina

Coupon-mad

murrayfan wrote: »

Well how do people prove that?. There's usually a notice right by the parking bays to specify that a blue badge must be displayed.

Already discussed here yesterday:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/59718787#Comment_59718787

No-one has to prove it. That's rather the point of parts of the Equality Act. Even on job application forms you'll notice that the question is usually worded 'do you consider yourself to have a disability as defined in the Equality Act 2010?' Then the employer has a duty to provide whatever adjustments are deemed suitable, within reason.

So to be compliant, a retailer should have notices to a similar clear effect, summat like:

'These bays are reserved for visitors who have a disability which causes them to need a wider bay or a space closest to the store. Please do not park here unless you or a passenger has such a disability need'.

Sounds OK to me, and after all train operators manage it on trains, you see this:

'Please give up your seat for any passenger who is elderly, pregnant, carrying an infant or who has a disability. Please remember that the need for this seat may not always be immediately obvious'.

Now that's a sign that complies with the Act, and all the train operators have to do apart from that is ask the ticket-inspectors & train staff to be alert in case anyone with such a need is finding it a problem to get a space to sit down. THAT is the job PPCs should be doing in disabled bay areas, helping any disabled people to find a suitable space to park, not pretending they are Council CEOs with some sort of right to check irrelevant Blue Badges and slap fake PCNs on any car they reckon doesn't comply with the made-up rules on their signs.

The reason PPCs do not do this is that all their income is derived from the fake PCNs, they are not paid to work for the stores. It's not in their interests to help disabled people (or anyone) or to dispense with the easy-fix of relying on the irrelevant Blue Badge scheme, as it would cut off a lucrative revenue stream for them, derived from members of Society who can least afford it but are also least likely to complain about it, perhaps.

Most people see the signs and believe them - just as you did. The PPCs are currently getting away with disability law breaches practically everywhere and not many people even realise it. Most people would probably pay if they got a fake PCN if their Blue Badge slipped down as well. This particular rip-off drives me MAD!

atilla

Adding to the above from CM.
The PPCs compound their ignorance of the Law with their love of ANPR - cheaper to run than paying a knuckle dragger.
They think they've covered their backs by saying Blue Badge Holders exempt, or words to that effect.
Yet they will automatically send out a ticket to any 'disabled' parker who had the temerity to overstay the 'time limit' simply because they now have no idea who is entitled to park in the disabled bays but by default have discriminated against the disabled.

pogofish

murrayfan wrote: »

Thanks. I don't understand why any disabled person wouldn't have a blue badge,.

Really...?

I've been disabled for around two years now, yet due to the nature of the system and the nature of my disability - a combination of movement impairing issues that are not on the short and overly clear-cut list of conditions and factors (eg DLA status) that automatically get you a badge, I have still to be considered to have a together-enough set of symptoms to be awarded one.

Luckily enough, the definition of disabled and provision for reasonable adjustments in the Equality Act does recognise that disablement is often difficult and unclear, so it does cover me and a great many other people who suffer.

murrayfan wrote: »

Why not?. They have parking attendants. What's the point in having disabled bays if anyone can use them?.

No, they have jumped-up baboons with minimal training who pretend to be parking attendants.

Are you aware that depending on the particular disability and nature of the individual reasonable adjustment required, any space, combination of spaces or other part of the car park in a private car park can be considered a "disabled space?" They don't all need to be fitted on to those yellowy stick men and wonky chevrons that stores, PPCs and ill-informed planners think satisfies all needs for accessibility.

murrayfan wrote: »

Does that rule apply even if there's a notice by the parking bay to say that a blue badge must be shown?. Surely anyone could plead that they'd forgotten their badge then?. We keep ours in the car so I've never checked up on that rule, but thanks for the info.

I don't think I have ever seen a legally compliant disabled bay in a private car park - the markings and bay sizing nearly always differs from that stipulated in the TSRGD - Which again makes any claim to the legality or suitability of these spaces a complete load of hooey!

murrayfan_2

Coupon-mad wrote: »

Just a heads up so you can fully understand the issue, and I am NOT saying that anyone can use the bays (far from it):

Under the Equality Act 2010 a person is 'protected disabled' at the very point of diagnosis, from that very moment. So let's say someone gets diagnosed with cancer, or ME, or a mental health issue which means their relative/driver needs to park very close to a store if they go out.

Legally, they can. On that very day they get diagnosed, they are considered disabled as they have a 'protected characteristic'.

But they are not going to have a Blue Badge and maybe never will because those are only issued for mobility issues (generally) and are only applicable on-street anyway. Whereas 'reasonable adjustments' under the Act - such as special bays close to the store, or wheelchairs in store if possible - are a legal duty for retailers/service providers to make available address the needs of ANYONE visiting who has a condition that means they need to use that bay.

No-one asks twenty questions if a shopper in Tesco needs to use one of their wheelchairs; no private company is hovering waiting to dish out fake 'fines' for alleged misuse! This is no different, it's only about need...but is harder to keep fair perhaps. Like I said on the linked thread, the fact that makes it hard to tell who can and who cannot park there is just tough for the PPCs really, they will learn when they and their clients are sued over it a few times.




P.S. As I am from Brighton and football mad, I do hope your username is in homage to Andy Murray as in the pic and not Cr***a* P***** player ffsMurray!

Lol, for a start, I lived near Brighton for 12 years, they were my local team, my brother had a season ticket, but this was a while ago mind :cool:. And yes, I'm a major Andy Murray fan, don't worry, it's the tennis player .

As for the rest, with what you and others are saying, I can only reply:

1) thanks for all the info and links, is is interesting but confusing - for instance I get the disability discrimination thing (having 3 disabled people in my house), but this seems to mean it's ok to park wherever you need to in a private car park, but not, say, on a public road (e.g outside a shop). I still can't see, in the blue badge handbook, where it states that none of the parking rules apply in private car parks, and I'm wondering how these car park operators can keep using the notices if they are completely illegal?.

2) I meant no offence by saying that I couldn't understand why people with a disability wouldn't have a blue badge - it just makes life easier, and as far as I know can usually be obtained with help from your G.P if necessary. I do realise that not all disabilities are 'obvious'. I'm epileptic, my son is autistic, my husband has bad arthritis, for instance.

3) I would have (perhaps stupidly) imagined that owners of private land were even more entitled to ask people to display a blue badge, or meet any other criteria they deem necessary, as it's their land. However, I do agree with you all that most car park operators are scam merchants. I wasn't 'on their side', I was on the side of people who desperately need extra wide bays to be left available for their use.

4) same again really for 'proving' a right to use a disabled space, again, didn't mean to be offensive. I just can't see the point in having a system that can't be enforced. Yes there are notices on trains and buses but these often lead to problems. In our local Morrisons cafe, for example, there are 2 tables for 'disabled' people, these are usually taken up by families who don't 'look' disabled, but we don't like to ask them for reasons covered above. I think really the tables are for people who need extra space, e.g for wheelchairs, and for people who can't walk far from the food line. Either way, most people disregard the notices.

murrayfan_2

Maybe part of the problem is the wide interpretation of what 'disabled' actually means. Officially I'm 'disabled' because of my epilepsy, but a blue badge/extra wide car parking space wouldn't be of any use to me.

My son is autistic, and a blue badge/disabled space wouldn't be any use to him really either. Help on public transport definitely would be great, but he never gets it.

My husband has severely limited mobility, walks short distances on 2 crutches, keeps a wheelchair in the car boot (which I help him with, obviously), and has a big problem getting in and out of the car from sitting. He couldn't manage without disabled bays/parking near to shops and amentities, which means we often have to wait for ages or go out very early to find suitable parking. Lack of lifts in multi storey buildings (as mentioned with this car park) are a major problem, same at railway stations and similar. Britain is extremely disabled unfriendly .

Stroma

Page 16 & 18 tells you where you can park, the new guidance is not as clear as the old one

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_186198.pdf

atilla

The blue badge handbook doesn't mention private parking because it is not relevant to private parking.
The scammers get away with it due to their schemes being in the grey area between legal or otherwise and also through sheer weight of numbers ('tickets').
You yourself seem somewhat determined to see good in them where none exists.

murrayfan_2

But Stroma I know, we have the handbook, and it doesn't help me with this, because of this bit:



"Place
Off-street car parks (such as supermarket,
hospital or local authority car parks)
Conditions
Off-street car park operators should provide
parking spaces for disabled people. However,
it is up to the car park owner to decide whether
badge holders can park free of charge.
Do not assume you can always park
for free".

To my mind, the mention of the blue badge in that context does sound like you need one to use those spaces (on private land). You're saying that's not the law, and I don't think you've made that up, but I still haven't seen it written anywhere explicitly in the handbook or the DDA.

murrayfan_2

atilla wrote: »

The blue badge handbook doesn't mention private parking because it is not relevant to private parking.
The scammers get away with it due to their schemes being in the grey area between legal or otherwise and also through sheer weight of numbers ('tickets').
You yourself seem somewhat determined to see good in them where none exists.

Haha, it is a fault of mine to see good where none exists, but in this case it's not my problem. My problem is how to make sure that people who really need the disabled bays get to use them, because it's a personal issue dear to my heart. It could get a bit Monty Python-esque if people had to ask one another, or to 'prove' their disability. Someone asked me on here if I had to 'prove' that I'm able bodied - well no, of course I don't, because I'm not in need of special requirements, so that's a bit irrelevant.

fisherjim

murrayfan wrote: »

But Stroma I know, we have the handbook, and it doesn't help me with this, because of this bit:



"Place
Off-street car parks (such as supermarket,
hospital or local authority car parks)
Conditions
Off-street car park operators should provide
parking spaces for disabled people. However,
it is up to the car park owner to decide whether
badge holders can park free of charge.
Do not assume you can always park
for free".

To my mind, the mention of the blue badge in that context does sound like you need one to use those spaces (on private land). You're saying that's not the law, and I don't think you've made that up, but I still haven't seen it written anywhere explicitly in the handbook or the DDA.

Maybe this will help, from the BPA site FAQ:

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/AOS-FAQs

The Department for Transport's Blue Badge scheme for the disabled driver allows for holders of the permit to park in certain restricted areas for up to three hours (areas and times may vary, depending upon the local authority.) This concession applies to the public highway only, and is not relevant on private land.