Say No to 0870!

System

By the way, did anyone notice why I asked Loopytush those particular questions;

and what did you think of his answers?

System

drrdf3, thanks for the info, I wasn't aware of the OFCOM plan.

If this naming scheme did go ahead then using 'low call' and 'midi call' must surely constitute a breach of Trade Descriptions/Advertising Standards since a 'low' call would be about 7 times higher than the lowest 'normal' , and midi would be 16 times the lowest call rate of 0.5p/min. Could any court justify the use of such descriptions?

With regard to the Q's you asked of loopytush, I have to admit not being familiar enough with 07 numbers and their history, but do understand the point you presumably are making about 'Premium' numbers not being allowed to have 'queuing' - yet 0870 can queue you for as long as they wish to increase revenue. But why this was set up seems odd - except insofar as people would surely have 'rebelled' much sooner if they were paying 25p/min to be 'held' !!.
Perhaps you could explain the relevance of your questions, for those of us willing to admit our ignorance, as you obviously appear to be familiar with this 'territory'. Many thanks.

MSE_Martin

National Campaign - i've a meeting with a PR company about it in a week. Will keep you up to date. I want to do it properly and make sure the pubicity is decent. Will need everyones help once it's up and running though.

martin

System

Great news, Martin,
Look forward to helping in any way you see fit.
Meanwhile I suggest we all just keep talking about this issue to anyone who will listen - just make people aware of the facts!
Here's to success ;D
ps I got a reply from the Chairman of Public accounts committee (E. Leigh MP) that he has asked the National Audit Office to comment on my queries. Will keep you informed when I get the further, promised, reply.

Loopytush

Good Luck! (no its not meant to be sarcastic)

Martin,

Knowing how these guys work. Would you not be better off waiting to see how this proposed renaming goes first. Maybe they will do more than rename them?

The only reason I ask is if you kick up your fuss now, they could say that they are currently looking at the situation, which in essance would be true. I think it may be wise to wait until they have renamed them and then if the calling cost are still not clear then go public.

Remember they are looking at the "Mini & Midi" range

gt94sss2

Just a thought,  maybe it's been aired already, but here goes anyway.
After July, when BT has all the customers on it's 'Option' packages, we will, presumably,  'lose' the pricing column currently labelled 'Standard' - which quotes the 7.9p/min daytime national rate.  The only call charges for 'national and local' calls will be the 3p and 1p as in the present 'Option1' column.  
If 0870 is then still advertised as 'National Charge Rate' will this not create more confusion ?  What is the definition, then, of a National Call Charge?  Bring in Trades description/Advertising Standards??!! ???

After the 1st July, "Local" and "National" calls will still exist for BT Together customers - bit only for 0845 and 0870 numbers.

The BT price list (after the 1st July) has a section called:
Table 2 - Inland NTS Direct Dialled PPM Prices

which covers this.

You can see what the BT price list will look like at http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/notifs/23-03-2004/Customer_Opts.boo/00373.htm

Regards
Sunil

System

Yes, Sunil, I am well aware of BT price structure.

The point I was trying to make was that for an 'eternity' (it seems!!) people have had the conception of "Local" and "National" call charges, broadly based on BT description.
0870 numbering , perfectly legitimately, advertised their charges as "Local/National" rates, when they ACTUALLY WERE these rates.
But over recent times call charges have changed and some "National" rates are now only 0.5p/min, even BT offer 3p/min, how can people be expected to realise that 0870xx, when advertised as 'national rate', is 7.9p/min - unless it is specified (as Premium lines must). Clarity is what is required, by the 0870xx number owners when advertising their cost, not 'hiding' behind phrases like "National Rates" - when clearly they are not.

The new 'naming' being considered by OFCOM may help (or not!!), but I was trying to point out that meantime it's a 'dog's breakfast'.
In my opinion there should be no more 'renaming' talk, let's just have straightforward figures put down instead, 8p/min is easier to understand than "Lo-call, Midi-call, Bad-call?" or any other phrases.

Victors_Bruvver

A dogs breakfast is what jbp435 describes it as, and I must wholeheartedly agree with his sentiments.

I think that what worries me most is the nagging feeling that with a name change Ofcom are considering, we end up with yet another “lash-up”.

Just look at track record for these industry regulators, they are so far removed from the real world i.e. the consumer and that they have, in all probability, worked in or been associated with the industry concerned, that they cannot see the wood for the trees and ignore public opinion because their opinion, and of that of the industry, says theirs is the correct one!

Does my memory serve me correctly in thinking that there was only one regulator, the one for gas (?), who was a real champion for the British consumer, and the industry he regulated were well pleased when it was his time to go,(or was it water?). Oh, and well before Martin of course!

There is a real threat here that any renaming (to mini, midi etc) of these already ambiguously charged numbers is only going to further confuse. I can see that in the long run companies using them will somehow circumvent the regulations and their customers will still get the wrong perception of how much they are spending on their call.

The bottom line is that the majority of us are looking for companies to completely break with using these 0870 numbers or for them to be renamed Premium numbers. Obviously, as much as we would applaud this, it would never happen because it is far, far too late. The regulator has decided in the past that Premium numbers would be prefixed 09 and these other numbers 08. I cannot see them changing all that back again – can you?

Forget mini, midi and maxi, do what the French, & a couple of other countries in Europe do, make the culprits issue a Wealth Warning, and legislate that for ANY number, (wherever published, letter, billboard, newspaper advertisement), outside the regular national, international and mobile network, it is highlighted in such a way that the consumer knows immediately what they are in for, and more importantly I think, show up those companies who are using this kidology to rip us off even further. A little logo in green to say Freephone and that this will cost you nothing, an blue logo for Local with the wording calls charged @ so much per minute, with say red for National calls is, in my humble opinion, going to have more effect then a name change to mini, midi.

[img][/img]


The examples above, if scanned and inserted correctly are for;
1) a magazine subscription with calls charged at 0,15e TTC / MN
2) EDF, the electricity company, charging they say, Local call price.
Hope this gives someone some better ideas than Ofcom!

System

The trouble now seems to be that there is really no such thing as 'normal' rates (be it national or Local), as different telcos all have slightly varying charges.
So it would seem easier to brand 0870 as 'Premium', or something similar, to distinguish them from what may have to be called something else (back to 'Standard' again maybe??) to mean the particular Telco's lowest rate for the 'normal' call. Hope this makes sense!!
French idea sounds OK, but not familiar with it.
Something has to be done about this rip-off of 0870.

Loopytush

Victors_Bruvver:

That is exactly what i have been saying all along. The only difference now is that I beleive that Martin should wait for the campaign until OFCOM have made there proposed changes, otherwise:

They will simply respond stating that they are currently reviewing the number range. We will wait and they will just rename the numbers or something and we have to start again.

I say wait till the new rulings etc come out and then if they have not changed for the better of the consumer then we can hit them.