Say No to 0870!

System

Loopytush,

I also do not expect all companies to provide 0800 numbers for sales calls. If a legitimately run company uses a normal geographic number for customers to call it now only costs them 0.5 p per minute. We all understand that some queuing is inevitable. That is not the problem. If you queue for 1 hour at 0.5 p per minute with a 1 p connection charge that is only 31 p for the cost of the call. I don't think anyone is going to object to that.

What aware consumers object to is the typical combination profile of 0800 sales number and 0870 (with scammed queuing times to generate as much revenue as possible) for sorting out non-delivery or other errors of the company or claiming on insurance or warranties already paid for up-front. This is the typical profile of the companies operating these scams.

Currently in the news is the increasing number of scams with 09 numbers also. There is an increasing number of scams with Trojan diallers downloaded from the Internet and installed without the knowledge or permission of a user, it then dialling 09 or even 0870 or 0871 numbers and running up large bills for the consumer. Now you also have the 08 reverse charge numbers adding to the problems and confusion. In 2 reported cases over the last 2 weeks there have been almost whole villages or towns hit by the current criminal ingenuity put into large-scale scams. If you make it easier to generate revenue in some facile manner rather than working for it or earning it it is inevitable that you will encourage criminal or quasi-criminal activities.

All of these problems have been generated by the muddled concept which was introduced of effectively reversing the charge or part of the charge for a call without proper protocol, accounting or billing. In the days when the only sort of call which could be made had no revenue-sharing possibility none of these problems or scams existed. It was a crazy idea in the first place to mix and confuse the cost of making a telephone call with the cost of paying for a supposed service. The two should be billed and accounted for separately as they always used to be. Then none of these problems would ever have existed.

I don't agree however that companies would use 09 numbers if revenue sharing was prohibited with all other NGNs:

1) because they could not have queuing
2) because they already know that would they would lose many customers.

Most large companies now need queuing, so they would in fact revert to normal geographic numbers. The big attraction of using revenue-sharing NGNs is that many consumers do not yet understand what they are doing and that they can use queuing on them for revenue generation. It must also be remembered that the originally-intended benefits of NGNs can also be provided for geographic numbers.

So the most consumer-friendly company will have queuing on a geographic number with re-routeing as necessary to any different geographical location. This then enables consumers to call them and queue at 0.5 p per minute.
enuity put into large-scale scams. If you make it easier to generate revenue in some facile manner rather than working for it or earning it it is inevitable that you will encourage criminal or quasi-criminal activities.

All of these problems have been generated by the muddled concept which was introduced of effectively reversing the charge or part of the charge for a call without proper protocol, accounting or billing. In the days when the only sort of call which could be made had no revenue-sharing possibility none of these problems or scams existed. It was a crazy idea in the first place to mix and confuse the cost of making a telephone call with the cost of paying for a supposed service. The two should be billed and accounted for separately as they always used to be. Then none of these problems would ever have existed.

I don't agree however that companies would use 09 numbers if revenue sharing was prohibited with all other NGNs:

1) because they could not have queuing
2) because they already know that would they would lose many customers.

Most large companies now need queuing, so they would in fact revert to normal geographic numbers. The big attraction of using revenue-sharing NGNs is that many consumers do not yet understand what they are doing and that they can use queuing on them for revenue generation. It must also be remembered that the originally-intended benefits of NGNs can also be provided for geographic numbers.

So the most consumer-friendly company will have queuing on a geographic number with re-routeing as necessary to any different geographical location. This then enables consumers to call them and queue at 0.5 p per minute.

Loopytush

firstly looks like you have repeated yourself on the post (might be easier reading you you delete the second instance)

I understand where you are coming from and whole haertedly agree. The only draw back is that you are looking at soley the consumers point of view.

So the most consumer-friendly company will have queuing on a geographic number with re-routeing as necessary to any different geographical location. This then enables consumers to call them and queue at 0.5 p per minute.
enuity put into large-scale scams. If you make it easier to generate revenue in some facile manner rather than working for it or earning it it is inevitable that you will encourage criminal or quasi-criminal activities

I would say that the split would be 50/50. The problem with this lies with the costing. For a company to provide this service it costs them, in addition to cost of the service or goods, to answer the phone and even queue the calls. IVR's can be very expensive to set up and run and then even at the end you have to pay someone to answer the phone.

What aware consumers object to is the typical combination profile of 0800 sales number and 0870 (with scammed queuing times to generate as much revenue as possible) for sorting out non-delivery or other errors of the company or claiming on insurance or warranties already paid for up-front. This is the typical profile of the companies operating these scams.

Yes scams do exists but despite the payment for the initail service or goods you have NOT already paid for the privelage of calling the company. In most cases a fault with a goods is routed to the company at their expense (agent to answer the phone, line rental IVR etc) just to be passed onto the manufacturer. I am sure (as I would be) that you would be one the first to complain if you were unable to tcall a company (on any number) to talk to a human rather than lets say writing to them or going to the place of sale. Companies could quite easily state ok we have the garuantee and other customer service but you have to write to us and the turn around is days rather than minutes (or hours if they are the scamming type of company).

This is why I say that the abolishment of the 087 revenue sharing would create price increases in other areas of the market. I mean somewhere the companies would have to recoup the costs of answering the phone.

An example could be that that TV you can buy for £199.00 would rise (across the sales board) to £250.00.

Now this would be projected buy companies looking at the average length that the average customer spends on the phone to them, possible maths below:

Goods = £199
Cost of answering the phone for an hour for the average customer:
1) Advisor = £5.50
2) Line Renatl = £5.00
3) Insurance etc for advisor = £4.00
5) Equipment and furtniture for adisor = £5.00
and so and so on

Now me myself would be more happy to call an 087 number (knowing the call charges due to clear advertising) even at the highest cost of £6.00 for an hour. Than to have to pay an extra £50 for the goods in the first place.

The revenue companies earn from the 087 range does not cover the cost of supplying the telephone service its self, 65% of calls to call centres are not required and are simple user errors or over demanding custromers. Take away the 087 revenue and this is where the company starts to either provide non quality customer service or increases the prices in the first place.

With regards to the scamming on these numbers then I agree some companies do take the "MICKY". However is it right to persicute those that dont?

Maybe rather than cutting the revenue out completely there should be more strict guidlines?

0870:
Clear warnings on call costs
Limited lenght of call (companies must route to voicemail after x amount of time)

As you can see i dont disagree with you from the consumer point of view but there are two sides to the story.

Not all companies are scamming from this and to be honest I would put a months wages on it that there is a higher percentage of over demanding customers and uneccersary calls made to call centres than there is of these scamming companies.

At the moment due to the lack of awareness the balance is tipped in the companies favour. Reverse that by taking away the revenue etc and do you think that companies will just roll over and accept that they will not get any funds towards the staffing of the phones rather than the low percentage that they currently get? I think not we would end up paying in some other way.

System

Been away for a few days, what a set of lengthy arguments, I've missed!
Is there a wee space to say that this argument (loopytush, I think) that 0870 is 'good for us' because if we didn't have it then firms would have to raise prices - I say GOOD - that way we would get a level playing field where as at present some rip us off with 0870 to keep their prices low while others act honestly and give geographic numbers. Unfair!
The other argument went along the lines of "poor companies have to pay to have their own phones answered, they would cut out the phones and make you write to them". Unbelievable! If my company wants to get anyones custom, then we have to build these costs into their accounts like anyone else. By covering these costs by the devious means of 0870 (accepting it is perfectly legal - but moral??) is not acceptable to us. Yet it is possible for the others to keep THEIR prices artificially low - lets have CLARITY !!
But the trouble seems to be this site is being hi-jacked by apologists for the system (maybe because of their own business interests?).
Saying that will get me into hot water I suppose!!

Loopytush

No hot water sammy just clarifications.

Yes I do have an interest - but hey am i not supported the general idea?

They should build the prices in with the service - Yes maybe they should but then you get the consumers complaining about the price increase.

Unbeleivable is what you have stated about my comments about companies cutting out the phones and making you write. Sorry but why is this? Most contracts of any type (sales, service etc) and terms and conditions state that all communication or requests should be made in writing. This common to the fact that they do not have to provide telephone support. After all telephones are a luxury (in a sense dont get pragmatic).

An example would be:

You buy a Nokia phone from a vodafone shop. The phone is knackered. Why should vodafone provide you with telephone service for this problem?

They dont have to but they do, and then they arrange it to be sent off to Nokia for you. Have a look at the warranty it is from Nokia and nothing to do with vodafone.

So you are right they do this to build a customer service, but at what point should they draw the line at footing the cost themselves.

Loopytush

At the end of the day my views can be picked at every 5 minutes. And this is quite welcome.

However all I am saying is that although I agree this situation needs addressing (urgently), but as consumers who generally expect everything for nothing (and yes we all do at times) we need to be realistic in what we expect and also we need to bear in mind the effects certain actions will have on the companies.

We all earn a living and along the lines the these companies are the ones that pay our wage. If we start cutting away at them we are cutting away at our own livings.

Lets do the campaign buts lets do it right and fair and realistic.

I have considered creating a side line for saynoto0870 in a sense of creating a site displaying experiences of clear "SCAMMING" but then this would sit nicely with my site on how to benefit from the 0870 just like the companies. After all there is nothing sweeter than the next mans pie!

System

Just 3 points:-
1) I do not want 'something for nothing' !! What I want is to have a choice of whether I phone geographic numbers or NGNs. I am happy to pay for my calls - but not at exorbitant prices under cover of the label 'National Rate' or whatever.
2) If Vodafone, or any other dealer sells me a duff piece of equipment it is THEY who are responsible under Sale of Goods Act (as amended) - so it would not be Nokia's problem but Vodafones, in your example, anyway. And if it was duff WHY should I then have to give this retailer MORE cash to get them to fix it???
3) I don't believe prices would increase, this is just scaremongering, because if every business was on 'the level playing field' then the usual commercial 'survival of the fittest' would ensue. But at least comparison of prices would be easy without these 'hidden' costs of 0870 numbers.

Loopytush

Poor points I am afraid.

1) You do have the the choice of whether to call these numbers nobody is forcing you.

2)Ok lets be more specific, after the 21 daqy return for faulty handset mobile phone shops etc can actually refuse to take back handsets as it is not they who have provided the warranty.

3) A point I have made earlier. The charges for 0870 are not hidden. Does not matter what they are called ot labelled no one is hiding the call charges, every one that has a phone has access to their telco's call charges. And even if they were its not the companies. fault, they have no control over the calling prices.

If you can come up with any valid points that:

a) Companies have control over
b) That are consistant with every 0870
c) The consumer has no choice over

then please try again.

I thought the whole concept of this website was for discussion? Apart from a few I have not seen any person here that is looking at both sides (consumer / business). In fact most people who have commented seem to think that the whole situation is that caused by the companies themselves (granted some bring it on themselves) when joe bloggs retailer has no say over such things as call charges or the consumers inability (or ignorance as one may say) to check call charges.

System

Loopytush,
Are you really the sage of telecoms? Anyone elses 'points' or whatever are always seemingly 'crushed' by you - you see only one side though pretending otherwise.

1) If a firm ONLY supplies 0870 then I DO NOT have a choice - surely that is what the discussion was initially about, before you cleverly diverted to all kinds of other things.

2) I think you will find warranties etc are not as 'powerful' as your rights under Sale of goods Act 1979 (as amended). There is no 21 day rule, I believe Sale of Goods Act can apply for possibly up to 5 years in certain instances, the definition revolves only around " fit for the purpose supplied".

3) Good Lord, the plethora of websites now seeming to complain about 0870 charging and you still keep the blinkers on and insist everything is clear for customers!!!
Unbelievable!

lisyloo

If a firm ONLY supplies 0870 then I DO NOT have a choice

All companies will deal with queries by post and most companies have email addresses these days or fax numbers.

I don't accept that you don't have a choice.

Sarahsaver

So, Loopy it is ok for companies to publish the 0870 number with no notification of costs, provide no alternative. Many people do not have access to the internet and/or do not have the confidence to challenge this sort of thing, and those are often those least able to afford it. Most businesses used to have 0800 numbers. They have free phone no's in france and the USA. So should we.
You said "We all earn a living and along the lines the these companies are the ones that pay our wage. If we start cutting away at them we are cutting away at our own livings. " They dont pay my wages. So you work for a telecoms company then? Can you tell us what your 'interest' is?
This site supports consumers because for the most part i didnt think it was about businesses looking for moneysaving hints. I could set up a restaurant but not print the prices on the menu, then charge loads when the meal has been eaten. Now that sounds like a good way to fleece people!