Say No to 0870!

System

Must say I don't see the point in waiting to start complaining. We would be making this rip-off far more public than just on this forum and that would make OFCOM know that we will not go away.
If we wait and they do a name change that is stii letting this happen - then we are at the begining again, and it will go on forever!
A campaign now, please.

Victors_Bruvver

Whist in agreement with Loopytush and hold fire on the campaign, I think that we must still make as many people aware of these abnoxious numbers and the companies who are using them. There must be thousands of folk out there who are under the false impression that these call charges are either cheaper then a regular call or on par with them, and as we know niether is correct.

Re those logos I tried to illustrate in my last posting. Does anyone know how to insert them or is it not allowed?

System

In my opinion, you guys seem to be missing the most important thing all the time with your alternative watered-down "solution", believing that some sort of coloured labelling of these numbers will solve the problem.

Despite what Loopytush has claimed, the real reason that queueing was banned with premium line calls (09) in the NTNS is that it was clearly seen then, as it is still perfectly clear to all but (Oftel previously) and Ofcom now, that if queueing is allowed with calls which generate revenue, then there will always be a propensity for the entity receiving the revenue to lengthen calls as much as possible by using every trick which they can possibly dream up. After all there are vast sums of money at stake here with entities having a high call volume. The temptation is just too great.

Imagine that you could have a fruit machine in the corner of your lounge, which had been doctored to pay out the jackpot continuously, as long as you were talking. You would talk continuously for as long as possible! You might not even need to go to work at all - this would be much easier! That is why queueing was originally banned with revenue-generating calls.

The real problem is that once NGNs were abused first by BT as revenue-generating lines (Premium lines), I think the first examples were to ISPs, it was eventually realised that here was a wonderful way of circumventing the prohibition of queueing with revenue-generating lines, because queueing was not prohibited with other NGNs, since it had never been intended that other NGNs should be used as revenue-generating lines. They were originally intended for special use where there was no one fixed geographic termination, to avoid the need for Diverters or Re-routers which were previously used to perform the same function.

It was precisely to avoid the abuses which have now occurred, and to make it clear to the public which numbers were revenue-generating numbers, amongst the confusion and plethora of Premium numbers which previously existed, that all revenue-generating numbers were supposed to have been moved to the 09 category with queueing prohibited!

The reality is that the BIG money being made from revenue-generating NGNs is being made by the abuse of queueing. This is why any attempt to ameliorate the current misuse of NGNs which does not take due account of this fact and address it as the central issue will fail to have any real effect. That is why BT and the large entities making money from this abuse with queueing do not want any change. They know that if they were forced to move all revenue-generating calls back where they belong there would be no queueing allowed, and that is where the big money is being made at present by this abuse.

So please awake to this and face the fact that there are only two possible and equitable solutions in the consumers' interest: either all NGNs must be charged at the appropriate rate for the particular telco carrying the call (which would mean that the premiums would have to become a percentage of the call cost - no longer a fixed amount);
or all revenue-generating calls must be moved to where they belong and were supposed to have been in the NTNS - in the 09 category.

The first option will still not prevent the abuses with queueing, but would reduce the resulting cost to the consumer significantly.

You would not believe some of the tricks which they are now getting up to with queueing! On the new iteration of the protest site which I am compiling I am listing the ones which I have discovered and some of them are unbelievably nauseous.

gt94sss2

In my opinion there should be no more 'renaming' talk, let's just have straightforward figures put down instead, 8p/min is easier to understand than "Lo-call, Midi-call, Bad-call?" or any other phrases.

Unfortunately, you can't do that either as each telco charges different rates to call 0845/0870 numbers - hence you can't advertise a "fixed" rate  - as it depends on the telco concerned.

Also, Ofcom has (recently) specifically refused to set a "national" (regulator set) rate for 08* numbers as that would stifle competition in the sector

In fact, last November, BT were the only ones Oftel could find whose 08* rates were the same as their geographic rates - all the other telco's had different rates even then (as BT will do from the 1st july)

Sunil

Loopytush

Despite what Loopytush has claimed

1) I have not claimed anything mearly stated the facts
2) You have basically stated the exact reasons that i did

Look I know:

1) As consumers it needs to be made more clear on the calling charges.
2) There are some companies that mis-use the revenue sharing numbers.

However as I have stated many times there are, so to speak, two sides to the coin. As consumers it needs to be more clear on the calling charges but also why should companies not make a revenue against the calls, to assist with the cost they have to cover to answer the call.

You state that you feel that all 08* numbers belong in the "Premium" section. On the basis of your argument then lets start screaming for 0800 to be put in this section, after all mobile telco's charge for these calls (ok not all but you get the jist).

The renaming and clarficiation of the 08 series to consumers would assist with the lack of knowledge. However if we work towards the cease of use for companies they will simply generate their revenues in others ways that will not be able to questioned by the consumers (e.g cross board price increases etc). At least the clear labelling of the 08* series would give that warning to the consumer.

And I know this following comment will cause a debate but if we want to get mean with the facts.

Ok so you have a service from company X and for what ever reason you want to call them.

1) Why should this company not earn towards paying for the call they answer. I mean 1 hour call to 0870 earns them approx an max of £3. Now with public demand the cost to answer that call is a minimum of (average) £5 and thats before any IVR costs etc as due to the minimum wage.

2) Why should they answer the phone at all? If they utilised there rights they could demand that all queries etc should be done by post. And then where would be? At least two days before company recieves mail. Then mail sorted and and queued in the right department and then finally probably a week later they would reply to you.

As consumers we need to face the facts. We have demanded so much from the business sector that we have to now comprimise or demend realistic things. Hence the re-naming or "Flagging" the calls charges of 0870 would make it clear what the call is going to be charged at.

As a whole I can see only bit one similar "metaphoric", spelt wrong i know but I only hope it is the right word..lol (lots of laughs).

When Internet was a big newbie we all jumped on board. And to access we all dialled 0845. As demand got higher and so did the call charges, out came umetered access. We paid a set fee and not the 0845 call charges. To me this is what will happen if we abolish the use of 0870. The call charges will be dropped but we will get a set fee (i.e. price increase or service decrease).

However ISP's were given the same question over and over again "What is the cost per minute" and they could only give the same answer "Depends on your service provider". This giving the caller the clear indication that the call charges vary and they need to check. A bit like us putting a warning on the 0870 numbers.

Now despite the increase of DSL connections the 0845 dial up in the UK is actually still on the increase "Fact" (as per the the dial up figures from the europes largest ISP).

So marking the calling numbers with a warning that they they need to check the call charges obviously has done some good in the sense it has pre-warned the consumer. And at the end of the day it has not effected the market.

System

Loopytush,

I did not mean to misquote you, but I don't see that you stated precisely that about queueing.

why should companies not make a revenue against the calls, to assist with the cost they have to cover to answer the call.

The reason why not is that usually the customer is having to call and queue to get an error caused by the entity's incompetence solved, some other problem caused by the entity solved or to make a claim on something for which the customer has already paid. It is all about transparency. Most consumers will not object to any entity foolish enough to use 0870 etc for sales; they then get their due deserts immediately - they loose many sales. This is exactly why many companies use 0800 numbers for sales and 0870 for all the other functions. That is totally dishonest.

If any company or entity needs more revenue they should increase the price of their goods or services; then they will not be as competitive and will lose business. What we object to is the deliberate deceipt, to pretend that their selling price is lower than it really is and then mark it up after sale by the use of disguised premium lines. This is not fair and straightforward competition. It is what is called a dirty commercial trick or a scam!

You state that you feel that all 08* numbers belong in the "Premium" section. On the basis of your argument then lets start screaming for 0800 to be put in this section, after all mobile telco's charge for these calls (ok not all but you get the jist).

I did not state that and I do not believe that all NGNs should be in the 09 category. NGNs which are being used for the original purpose for which they were intended (without revenue sharing) in the NTNS should remain where they are, but I believe that the only real solution is to prohibit ALL revenue sharing with NGNs other than 09, particularly because queueing trickery is the principal part of the current scam.

I agree with you concerning 0800 numbers and mobile providers; but this is yet another example of the regulators failing completely to regulate. Either 0800 is a freephone number or it is not. There can be no exceptions. Any contravention of the regulations by any licenced telecoms provider should be punished severely with heavy fines, and if necessary after repeated failures to conform they should have their licence taken away. That is what the regulators are supposed to be there for!

Loopytush

True very true apart from:

How are the companies being dishonest (dont jump on me I know the tricks but) they are abiding by the rules and they have not set the calling charge.

We are all jumping on the companies back screaming scam this scam that. If you sent that to court then you would be laughed at. The companies are not hiding any call charges and in fact they cannot as they do not set the call charges. Any person in my view that calls any number that they do not know the actual charge for regardless of what the number appears to be is a fool! Thats why so many people end up complaining to ICSTIS about premium rate lines and get told they should have read the small print.

You state that you feel that the customer should not pay for a service they have already paid for (i.e. insurance, faulty goods etc) What I was trying to say is why should the company provide the service over the telephone they dont have to, but they do and then to recoup that cost they make revenue.

I just think that some people are approaching this in the complete wrong way. As far as I can see we are all agreed that the numbers "TITLE" are misleading. Apart from not being the fault of the companies using them, having to rebrand them with a warning (in my view going that extra mile for the consumer) is good enough.

Yes companies do use 0800 for sales and then 0870 for support but nowhere along the lines are they breaking any rules or misleading any consumers. If a consumer feels mislead because they are calling a number that they do not actually know the charge for then apart from putting their brain into gear before calling such numbers (the charges are never hidden and can be found on all telco providers sites etc) they should complain about the numbering system not the companies.

Loopytush

I may sound a bit harsh to the consumer in my last thread and no disrespect was meant but the plain facts are there!

And as I have stated I would support any renaming campaign there is.

System

Loopytush,

I agree with your last point. That is exactly what we have been saying. The problem is with the numbering system and the failure of Oftel and Ofcom to enforce it.

I agree that in principle these companies are not doing anything illegal in using these numbers. I would suggest though that some of the tricks being used now for queuing protraction verge on illegality, and at the very least are morally questionable (that is, if one has any morals of course).

However I am still convinced that any legitimately-run business will not use these revenue generating NGNs. Any really competent businessman knows that to alienate his customers in the long run is bad for business. It may be OK for making a fast buck, but longer term it does not do anything for customer relations.

I have yet to meet any consumer who actually thinks this racket is the best thing since sliced bread for consumers, and would go out of their way specifically to choose companies for their custom who use these revenue generating NGNs rather than other companies who use geographic numbers! Even those who decide to call 0870 numbers do so reluctantly, except those who still have not yet realised what is going on of course.

Loopytush

And I agree with every point you have made in your last post.

Tha fact is I dont think it is fair to alienate those companies that use the 0870 for legitimate reasons and do not abuse them.

I do think that if you stop revenue sharing though that companies WILL use the 09 series even if as a medium until they can be supplied with the same services on standard landlines. I think it a bit too much to expect them to use 0800 in all cases.

By making the public simply more aware the usage will slowly go down this giving companies the chance to work on alternatives.

And your right I do not know any consumer that will go out of their way to call the 0870 but whilst there is a inadiquate naming the larger companies will just continue to force people to use these numbers.

This is the medium I think we should expect from companies. They should and in most cases as far as I have chatted to agree to a renaming to make public more aware. And this would give the industry time to adjust with slower decreasing of the revenue.