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We WILL get an EU referendum
Comments
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Nothing to do with the EU thenGeorgeHowell wrote: »The only individual rights that most people associate with Europe is the right for illegal immigrants, criminals, and terrorists to remain in the UK whilst continuing to commit crime, preach hatred against us, and live off benefits. Labour certainly won't commit to change any of that.0 -
Nothing to do with the EU then
I've been waiting for that one to surface.
You and I know that the ECHR is separate from the EU. However it's odds on that the majority of the population does not appreciate the distinction. Also they are connected because membership of the Council of Europe is mandatory for EU membership, and the CofE confers ECHR authority over its members. Of course a lot of the problem is our own Human Rights Act and the way a lot of the idiots in our judiciary choose to interpret it. But you and I also know that to most people "Europe" stops us deporting Abu Qatada and that's what will be in their minds when they vote. If anyone thinks they can be educated out of that thinking, best of luck.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
When I say she will negotiate, I do not mean that Cameron will get anything meaningful. Primarily because he will not ask for anything meaningful within the German menu of negotiating choices. Merkel has a memory like an elephant. Don't think that Cameron using the veto has been forgotten.Graham_Devon wrote: »I'd just sit back for a moment. Only yesterday I think it was you, who was saying there would be no negotiation and how stupid the tories were.
Now you have having to change your stance somewhat (May have been someone else, if it is, I apologise, but the coments have all been pretty much the same).
Germany, clearly, needs us as much as we need them. The referendum and potential loss of Europe has Angela changing her stance, and now others in the EU coming to terms with the fact they need us, they will have to do something, otherwise we'll be gone, under mandate of the British people.
Wait for the outcome, instead of jumping the gun and telling us what will happen.
It was the same when Cameron used his veto, labour supporters, and Ed Milliband and the loabour party jumping in to say he's destroyed our position in the EU. He didn't. It lasted one day, and the bluff from the EU lot soon died down.
What will be up for negotiation is reform. So negotiation will be
M: So you would like to negotiate reform of the EU. What reforms would you like?
C: We would like that cherry tree for ourselves
M: Here are 2 cherries a hammer and some nails. Oh and here is a cherry tree leaf. I don't think it will cover your private bits, but if you found yourself a piece of timber you could hammer together something to take home which looks not quite unlike a cherry tree. No doubt you can do something with some mirrors to make it look like a forest of cherry trees.
C: Thank you Angela
M: Run along now David, before I change my mind. Mustn't let my sauerkraut go cold.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
ValHaller, your mind appears to be made up. Unforunately, it was also made up yesterday, but now wronged.
If you cannot open your mind because of your party policital allegiances, that's fine, but we can't have a proper debate based on that.
It's just predjuice being put forward, not logical thoughts.
Honestly, on this forum, within a week we have gone from a position of:
- There won't be a referendum (now there is one)
- There won't be negotiation (now there is)
- The negotition won't prove meaningful (we'll see, thoug it's getting a little boring).0 -
When I say she will negotiate, I do not mean that Cameron will get anything meaningful. Primarily because he will not ask for anything meaningful within the German menu of negotiating choices. Merkel has a memory like an elephant. Don't think that Cameron using the veto has been forgotten.
What will be up for negotiation is reform. So negotiation will be
M: So you would like to negotiate reform of the EU. What reforms would you like?
C: We would like that cherry tree for ourselves
M: Here are 2 cherries a hammer and some nails. Oh and here is a cherry tree leaf. I don't think it will cover your private bits, but if you found yourself a piece of timber you could hammer together something to take home which looks not quite unlike a cherry tree. No doubt you can do something with some mirrors to make it look like a forest of cherry trees.
C: Thank you Angela
M: Run along now David, before I change my mind. Mustn't let my sauerkraut go cold.
The veto was an excellent move actually because she now knows he means business and isn't all huff and puff.
M. So how can I help you, David ?
C. Angela, you know we are never going to join your superstate before hell freezes over.
M. Yes, I have received that message loud and clear.
C. Okay so let's consider an associate membership status for ourselves and potentially others who remain outside it, except we won't call it that.
M. Tell me more.
C. We will accept all reasonable measures to preserve the integrity of the single market -- but we want a review of the more onerous and pointless ones -- but everything else has to go, because if we're not in for the federalist/ever closer union why does any of it matter ?
M. You have a point, but it will be difficult to sell to Brussels.
C. Don't ask them, tell them. You're in charge aren't you ? Without you bankrolling it the whole things falls apart anyway.
M. On the subject of money, what about you're net contribution ?
C. 5% reduction per year in real terms, till we reach 75% then freeze
M. 85%
C. 80%
M. Done. And the treaty ?
C. Get it drawn up asap, I'll need about 6 weeks to get the detail agreed, and to at least show it to Cash & co, but I don't see any real problem with the referendum, if we can say that this can all be on the statute book by 1/1/18.
M. Nice to do business with you, David. See you in Davos.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
I think your analysis is naive. Yes, I think Germany would rather have the UK in rather than out. But what is becoming plainer is the unacceptability of negotiating with one foot out of the exit door. There is nothing apart from the trivial up for grabs. We are not interested in EU reform, we are only there to cherry pick. And all we will get is a trivial concession to allow NHS hospital doctors to work stupid hours and put British patients at risk.GeorgeHowell wrote: »Completely wrong analysis. Merkel has obviously accepted that we're not going to join the superstate and to keep good relationships and trading with us is preferable to the opposite. She will also know that taking a hard line is just likely to force us out. Only the federalist idealogues would be stupid enough to force that just on a point of principle. Ultimately only the real issues that keep the single market level playing field together will have to be preserved. Everything else will be up for grabs, from doctors' working hours, to benefits and immigration, to the ECHR, to criminal justice policies. To preserve the Euro and move towards federalisation before it all implodes the countries that want it need us to be cooperative, not obstructive. Cameron knows all this. Let's not pretend this situation has arisen without manifold behind the scenes discussions and understandings, whatever might be said for public consumption.
What Cameron had to say - and the faux pas of planning to give the speech on Monday indicates that there have been no meaningful discussions behind the scenes. Cameron is fronting a vacuum.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
Didn't the Cons promise this the last time ?0
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:GeorgeHowell wrote: »The veto was an excellent move actually because she now knows he means business and isn't all huff and puff.
M. So how can I help you, David ?
C. Angela, you know we are never going to join your superstate before hell freezes over.
M. Yes, I have received that message loud and clear.
C. Okay so let's consider an associate membership status for ourselves and potentially others who remain outside it, except we won't call it that.
M. Tell me more.
C. We will accept all reasonable measures to preserve the integrity of the single market -- but we want a review of the more onerous and pointless ones -- but everything else has to go, because if we're not in for the federalist/ever closer union why does any of it matter ?
M. You have a point, but it will be difficult to sell to Brussels.
C. Don't ask them, tell them. You're in charge aren't you ? Without you bankrolling the whole things falls apart anyway.
M. On the subject of money. What about you're net contribution.
C. 5% reduction per year in real terms, till we reach 75% then freeze
M. 85%
C. 80%
M. Done. And the treaty ?
C. Get it drawn up asap, I'll need about 6 weeks to get the detail agreed, and to at least show it to Cash & co, but I don't see any real problem with the referendum, if we can say that this can all be on the statute book by 1/1/18.
M. Nice to do business with you, David. See you in Davos.
Then the UK has a referendum, accepts it and George is a happy man who thinks about the EHCR no more?
It is just a positive cherry picking scenario. I think the cherry picking is over. but if Merkel has you fooled, she'll have Cameron mugged good and proper. And no doubt he will look very pleased to be mugged.You might as well ask the Wizard of Oz to give you a big number as pay a Credit Referencing Agency for a so-called 'credit-score'0 -
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Then the UK has a referendum, accepts it and George is a happy man who thinks about the EHCR no more?
It is just a positive cherry picking scenario. I think the cherry picking is over. but if Merkel has you fooled, she'll have Cameron mugged good and proper. And no doubt he will look very pleased to be mugged.
If it makes you happier to think that in the meantime, then think it by all means.
But from time to time you lefties will be waking up in the night in a cold sweat at the prospect that one way or another the European federalist socialist dream may well be coming to an end.No-one would remember the Good Samaritan if he'd only had good intentions. He had money as well.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher0 -
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Then the UK has a referendum, accepts it and George is a happy man who thinks about the EHCR no more?
It is just a positive cherry picking scenario. I think the cherry picking is over. but if Merkel has you fooled, she'll have Cameron mugged good and proper. And no doubt he will look very pleased to be mugged.
Why is it that everytime you are proven wrong, you suggest others have been fooled?
Not just talking about you, but the band of merry lefties who do this time after time.0
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