We WILL get an EU referendum

ValHaller

Graham_Devon wrote: »

So what is leadership then?

Giving up and rolling over to the EU and all it's demands without a whimper?

You have just cited an example of what leadership is not. Leadership is also not giving up and rolling over to the EUrosceptics without a whimper.

Leadership could be saying 'the EU is wrong for us and we should leave for reasons PQR and I call a referendum within a year to endorse that' (not that I would agree with it)

Leadership could be saying 'the EU is right for us and we wish to improve things by negotiating for XYZ'

Note that there is no referendum with staying in. The idea of a referendum to maintain the status quo is quite bizarre. Referenda are basically to achieve a specific mandate for a change.

Cameron has put us in the position of having an unsatisfactory referendum on some transparently trivial concessions which will be thrown our way when more could have been negotiated away from the shadow of a referendum. And ultimately in the position of needing to have another go at lancing the boil every 25 years or so.

The_White_Horse

those on job seekers allowance and those that work in the public sector should not be allowed a vote. or there should be a points system according to how much tax you pay, so that the vote is worth more. why should the vote of someone who earns 250k a year and pays tax on that have their vote count the same as a layabout filth scrounger who just adds cost?

grizzly1911

The_White_Horse wrote: »

those on job seekers allowance and those that work in the public sector should not be allowed a vote. or there should be a points system according to how much tax you pay, so that the vote is worth more. why should the vote of someone who earns 250k a year and pays tax on that have their vote count the same as a layabout filth scrounger who just adds cost?

Why should Wayne Rooney, for example, have more of a vote?

How do you evaluate earn? Just because you get £250K doesn't mean you earn it any more than someone who gets £5K and claims child benefit. It certainly doesn't mean you have any more idea which way to vote. Anybody with an ISA or childs ISA avoiding tax should have points deducted.

A private IT contractor paying no NI and very low tax through his company may have a very good opinion but would be denied votes.

ValHaller

The_White_Horse wrote: »

those on job seekers allowance and those that work in the public sector should not be allowed a vote. or there should be a points system according to how much tax you pay, so that the vote is worth more. why should the vote of someone who earns 250k a year and pays tax on that have their vote count the same as a layabout filth scrounger who just adds cost?

Perhaps you might support an EU directive on how much weighting to give to the votes of individuals? Your little paragraph pretty much disqualifies you from pointing to a democratic deficit anywhere.

GeorgeHowell

Clegg has said that Cameron's course of action is not in the national interest.

He is entitled to his view and to express it. But over something of such fundamental constitutional significance the idea that the electorate cannot be trusted to make the "right" decision and that it should be left to a self-appointed metropolitan elite who know what's best for us is abominable.

The latest lunacy from Brussels is a proposal that all press regulation should be controlled from there. Would anybody like to suggest what that has to do with the operation of the single market ? More importantly only people who are not really interested in democracy could possibly want to stay tied to an organisation that would suggest such a thing.

If the EU doesn't change fundamentally then we should either loosen our ties with it very substantially, or if that does not prove possible, come out. That is the opportunity that Cameron is giving us, and anyone who refutes it obviously does not really believe in democracy.

Graham_Devon

As one of the Guardian comments sums up

"I completely believe in democracy, but it's ridiculous to suggest The Sun readers should pave out how our country goes forward".

In other words "I believe in democracy, so long as my preference is never threatened by allowing others the choice".

Conrad

Do you guys think Milliband will now find himelf as the torch barer for 'vote me, vote full UK integration into federal Europe' ?

GeorgeHowell

Graham_Devon wrote: »

As one of the Guardian comments sums up

"I completely believe in democracy, but it's ridiculous to suggest The Sun readers should pave out how our country goes forward".

In other words "I believe in democracy, so long as my preference is never threatened by allowing others the choice".

Yes, sums up the type I'm afraid. They believe that democracy is too important to be left to the will of the people.

It's ironic that it is the alleged upper-class, out of touch party that is going to break ranks on this. The parties that purport to understand and represent ordinary people, nevertheless don't want them to have a say in the matter.

globalds

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Ok, for those against the referendum, for which there are many, and for those who have decided he will fail at the first hurdle of negotiations...

Does this really not bother you? Does the fact that some German EU bloke has today said "All and everything must be done by Brussels, for Brussels" in response to David Cameron?

Do these things not bother people? I don't care what my political preferences are, that sentence alone worries me deeply and I really can't believe most people are going around agreeing with that?

You keep doing this ..I might choose not to vote Tory ..That does not mean I am against a referendum.

GeorgeHowell

Conrad wrote: »

Do you guys think Milliband will now find himelf as the torch barer for 'vote me, vote full UK integration into federal Europe' ?

No, that's what he thinks, but he'll be very cautious about saying it. Labour knows that the public opinion tide has turned very much in the direction of saying to the EU -- shape up or we're off. In a close election it could even be a deciding factor. Milliband would probably have as much trouble in saying to his party that he would commit to hold such a referendum as Cameron would have done in saying that he wouldn't.

Labour is all over the place on the EU, has no credible policy, and has fallen into a second trap within a couple of weeks -- the first one being opposing the 1% benefits cap which is hugely popular in the country despite all the bleeding hearts whingeing about it in the media.

Milliband's showing in PMs questions today was pitiful. Just a pathetic attempt to play ya boo personal politics over one of the, if not the, most important issues facing the country. Completely out of his depth.