We WILL get an EU referendum

gorgeyetsun

Mr._Pricklepants wrote: »

But still I believe leaving altogether would be unwise. A bit like the kid and the bathwater...

Isn't that the 'baby and the bathwater', as in "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"?

Graham_Devon

ash28 wrote: »

I'm not against a referendum, but based on what he said today I wouldn't be surprised if in reality there wasn't one.

What he hasn't said is "if the Conservatives win the next election there will definitely be a referendum - no ifs buts or maybes". He's made it conditional on the success of future negotiations. He hasn't said what would happen if those negotiations fail.

So if the condition of successful negotiation isn't met what do you think will happen? He isn't a politician for nothing....

Now that bothers me - because it just looks as if he's thrown the problem into the long grass - EU problem out of way, for now.

Yes, Europe bothers me to a degree - and if I'm honest I don't know enough about it or the ramifications of staying in or leaving to be able to make an informed choice. It would be nice to be given that information but somehow I don't think I will be. I'll have to try and sort the wheat from the chaff from the hysterical crap we'll be fed by our media and our politicians.

Ahh right, I see what you mean.

I suppose a clear answer will have to be given soon regarding the negotiations thing. I don't think Cameron would be quite silly enough to back out of a referendum after promising it stating "didn't get what I want, therefore, sorry, you don't have a say", especially considering the fact that nto being able to negotiate anything will give clarity to peoples thoughts.

For instance, if we negotiate something, I will likely vote yes to stay in. If they refuse all negotiation, that to me says it's not in our interests to stay in, and I'd want out.

It would be suicide for Cameron and the tory party to duck out and keep us in the Euro, if more and more people are angry that we can't change a damn thing. I don't know what Cameron would get out of pulling out of a referendum. I don't see what the tory party would get either, apart from a massive loss of potential voters and core voters.

Conrad

So Hamish, have you seen the ONS data today? Near on 500,000 jobs created in last 12 months, employment at yet another all time high and that includes more 16-24 yo's employed that ever before.

See what I mean about you filtering out all the signs the rebalancing is well under way.

Hundreds of policies and changes since the Tories got in, gradually and sustainably delivering real prosperity, rather than Gov't spending on the PS.

The greatest prosperity era in our history is now underway.

Mr._Pricklepants

gorgeyetsun wrote: »

Isn't that the 'baby and the bathwater', as in "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"?

Yes, that's the one.

Conrad

Mr._Pricklepants wrote: »

There are lots of things that bother me about the EU.....CAP, fisheries policy, bureaucratic waste, Herman Van Rompuy, etc..etc..

But still I believe leaving altogether would be unwise.

I'd probably be happy to stay in a reformed EU but I wouldn't be worried by us exiting either because I just know we'd pull through and quite possibly even prosper out of it, for example by offering global investors a lean less regulated business enviroment on Europes door step.

Japan, Taiwan, S Korea and all the others trade perfectly well with the world as individual nations.

ValHaller

Graham_Devon wrote: »

We face a real propsect now, and this is what interests me. I'd like a vote, I've made that clear, it's never been offered to me, and neither has real proper information. I'm just expected to pay in. At the moment, I'd likely vote to stay in, BUT, I'd rather have a vote based on a proper renogotiation. If the EU will not negotiate, I think we'd be better out, considering the way the EU is moving towards political governance over and above fiscal governance. That is a highly scary prospect to me and just shows the EU isn't about involving countries, it's about ruling them. about.

If you want a negotiation, Cameron has gone the wrong way about it and is going for the wrong kind of negotiation.

As someone else pointed out rhetorically "Is Yorkshire ruled by the UK?". Suppose Yorkshiremen wanted duty lifting on wines and spirits. Would they campaign for this to happen in Yorkshire alone? With the result that huge cash and carry warehouses would be built on the Lancashire border? If their reason were that wines and spirits are too expensive, they would campaign for a reduction across the UK. If their reason were that they wanted to grab the wines and spirits trade of Lancashire, they would campaign for a Yorkshire only reduction.

Take note of what Hamish says:

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Nonsense.

There will be no negotiation.

Cameron, and Britain, would be humiliated by the refusal of the EU to negotiate anything meaningful, and we'd look like a petulant child sulking as the government of the day frantically U-turned on the wording to make sure we stayed in anyway.

If we negotiate for sweetheart deals, we will be roundly rebuffed. If we negotiate for a change to something to apply across the whole EU, and do it from the centre of the room, we might not get what we want, but we will be respected for our views.

And I think that the French are very much on our case. If we attempt to negotiate opt outs or sweetheart deals, you can be sure that they will be flinging derision and insult our way in the manner of de Gaulle, with the intention of making us angry enough to walk out.

As it happens, in his speech, I think Cameron set out lifting of the Working Time Directive as the prize he would accept in negotiation. We might actually get it as a sweetheart deal too, because we would be so obviously seen to be walking away with a pathetic fig leaf.

We are entering into negotiation from a weak position based on Cameron's party problems and we will walk away weaker as a result, regardless of whether we stay in or leave.

StevieJ

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Ahh right, I see what you mean.

I suppose a clear answer will have to be given soon regarding the negotiations thing. I don't think Cameron would be quite silly enough to back out of a referendum after promising it stating "didn't get what I want, therefore, sorry, you don't have a say", especially considering the fact that nto being able to negotiate anything will give clarity to peoples thoughts.

Why not he has form re The Lisbon Treaty

David Cameron's frustrating Europe obfuscation can be traced back to his other big crisis on the issue: abandoning the Tories' "cast-iron guarantee" over the Lisbon treaty referendum.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/lisbon-treaty-u-turn-haunts-cameron-europe-long-121134621.html

Conrad

ValHaller wrote: »

We are entering into negotiation from a weak position based on Cameron's party problems and we will walk away weaker as a result, regardless of whether we stay in or leave.

Here we go again the same tired old infantile rhetoric of the brand that claimed we would fail unless we joined the Euro, that Cameron would get nowhere with the veto a while back.

This is leadership in tooth and claw. We at last have the courage to set out our demands and lead from the front.

Who knows this might get leviathan Europe to evolve for the better in terms of competetivness.

Don't be such a coat tail hanger.

ValHaller

Conrad wrote: »

Here we go again the same tired old infantile rhetoric of the brand that claimed we would fail unless we joined the Euro, that Cameron would get nowhere with the veto a while back.

This is leadership in tooth and claw. We at last have the courage to set out our demands and lead from the front.

Who knows this might get leviathan Europe to evolve for the better in terms of competetivness.

Don't be such a coat tail hanger.

You call this leadership? And then you call me a coat tail hanger?

This will do nothing for European competitiveness. This is all about Cameron pandering to 'Brussels is telling us what to do' and playing the opt out game. It is the Wrong Kind of negotiation to do anything for Europe as a whole.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

It would be suicide for Cameron and the tory party to duck out and keep us in the Euro, if more and more people are angry that we can't change a damn thing. I don't know what Cameron would get out of pulling out of a referendum. I don't see what the tory party would get either, apart from a massive loss of potential voters and core voters.

Seems a little odd - he's very keen to give the public a voice and it's a simple in/ out question. You'd think he'd want to get on with it rather than waiting years.

Maybe he's hoping to have bought sufficient time to carefully plan the U-turn this time?