Opinions Please - Work Issue.

Edwardia

My OH has to work around a male boss doing flexible working and wanting time off in school holidays. There are enough people in the team OH manages that they can generally have what they want and it's s/he who books first gets. That does mean that parents don't always get the half terms they want.

I think any company which gives priority to parents is wrong. Kids are a lifestyle choice, the UK population isn't going to hit zero any time soon. All staff should get equal treatment.

Part of the problem is that parents are very much discouraged from taking kids out of school during term time, at least in state schools.

As for lunches, if there's a rota that's worked out by the bosses that's fair and if you have a whole week of doing a set time you can always ask permission to swap. Whereas a free for all creates disharmony when people always want a particular time or more leeway because of rugrats.

I had tutors through the school summer holidays for large parts of it in best and worst subjects which I hated at the time but if I was school age now I think my parents would home school me because they took me out of school to travel quite a bit.

GobbledyGook

**Patty** wrote: »

Ever tried getting permission for a child in year 9 or above to take a family holiday in term time?
That's not choice. Choice is for me to take them away when I want to.......not when the LEA gives me permission to. Works the same for those in the education profession.

It is still choice though, the initial choice to have a child or work in education.

When I chose both I knew I was limiting myself to term time holidays only. That was my choice.

Taking children away whenever we want may be the choice that we want, but not having that specific choice doesn't mean we have no choice.

coolcait

Janepig wrote: »

Yes, I suppose I do "expect", because, as mentioned in other posts, I work in a team where I am the only person who "needs" to take school holidays. I have worked with my colleagues for a long time, and know that they have no problem with this, and as I said, I have taken 3 weeks off this summer holiday (two weeks, then one week), and usually take one week at easter, and two days out of the three half terms. Plenty left for the others to take. Christmas is shared as it's special to all of us, and in fact the childless person I work with has had just about every Christmas off in living memory!! How is that selfish and arrogant tell me?

However, I'm shortly moving to a different team where there are at least two other people of my grade who have school age children, so I know I won't get first dibs which I do now, it'll have to be worked out between us. I know that I'm not selfish, I've done my bit before I had children, I know I don't cause my current colleagues any problems, fact.

And what I said about the childless taking time off out of spite was "But does that mean that those who don't NEED to take time off in the school holidays should take it anyway out of spite? In your case I guess it does" - which was a direct reply to the poster who said that the fact I limit myself to taking leave at school holiday times was my choice, my problem. But again, fwiw, I would not be able to understand the motives of someone who could otherwise take leave away from school holiday time, but would decide not to, at the detriment of those with children. Of course they should be entitled to if they wish, and it would otherwise be none of my business, but in all conciousness that is not something I could do and I do think it would be spiteful.

If there's anyone sounding selfish and arrogant and indeed bitter on this thread it's the non parents.

Jx

Sorry, janepig, but I'd agree that your posts are coming across as selfish, arrogant, bitter and with an element of 'hating' on this thread.

We don't always know why a colleague might 'need' to take time off at a certain time, or book holidays at certain times of year.

Suggesting that 'childless' people who book leave during the school holidays are doing so 'out of spite' does suggest that some parents think they have more of an entitlement than their colleagues.

They don't.

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested that the OP's colleague might be bitter because she hadn't been given the same preferences when her children were small.

On the other side of the coin, you seem to be bitter because you have - in your view - paid your dues by covering holidays when you were childless. And you now expect others to do the same for you. It's the 'expect' part which makes your assumption seem arrogant.

It's those kinds of 'assumptions' and 'expectations' which make it more difficult for the single, the childless, and the parents of older children to stand up to tide of displeasure (and insult) which can come their way if they want/need time off at the same time as the parents of small children.

As an aside,' the parents of older children' are often the same people as 'the children of older parents'.

That can mean that they often still have caring responsibilities - but they are now caring for a different generation.

As I have pointed out to many a manager over many a year - 'family friendly policies' and 'recognition of caring responsibilities' are complex areas, and can't be summarised as simply as 'parents of small children first'.

RosaBernicia

There are plenty of reasons why non parents may want to take leave in school holiday time. Including wishing to spend time with family or friends who DO have children! It's hardly spiteful to want to spend a holiday with your nieces and nephews for example.

As many other posters have said, I am happy to be flexible where possible but would be very angry to find an automatic presumption in favour of any particular cause, whether that be parents, carers of their own parents, cat owners, Trekkies or any other group.

Unfortunately part of the difficulty with informal flexibility is that it can so easily get confused with other issues. OP, is there anything else going on in your office that may have upset your colleague? I know it should be possible to separate things but we are all human.


Rosa xx

daska

Mrs.W wrote: »

Good point. Parents of school age children often plan for the year ahead giving consideration to things child-free and paticularly single people don't need to think about.

Example: When they book that afternoon off in the lead up to Christmas, six months in advance, they'll be attending a school nativity or play.

six months?! we're lucky if we get 6 days notice :mad:

Spendless

I've worked in plenty of places and not one of them has had a rule that people with kids get 1st dibs on hols, usually it's 1st come, 1st served.

I was annoyed with Mr S last year as I'd earmarked a hol when there were inset days, but 2 of his colleagues put their hols up first. My annoyance wasn't that they had got a time when my kids school was shut and they were childless, but that hubby who is the manager of that dept hadn't sorted out an adequate hol booking system, which led to 2 people in a small team being off at the same time.

The only time I can see people with kids having a gripe is for the time off between xmas and new year. I don't know if everywhere is like where I live but childcare is non existant here between 27 -31 dec and not everyone has jobs where their workplace closes down.

JB1971

I'm child free (by choice) and am normally very, very laid back but this thread has really got me mad!
I've always avoided taking time off during school holidays, but sometimes its not possible. Like going to watch my nephew in a nativity play shortly after his dad had died (and his mother had left years earlier.) Did I want to share this with my colleagues? No. Was I taking time off out of spite? No. Did I deserve the same consideration as everyone else, regardless of personal circumstances/life choices? Hell yes!

Janepig

coolcait wrote: »

Sorry, janepig, but I'd agree that your posts are coming across as selfish, arrogant, bitter and with an element of 'hating' on this thread.

We don't always know why a colleague might 'need' to take time off at a certain time, or book holidays at certain times of year.

Suggesting that 'childless' people who book leave during the school holidays are doing so 'out of spite' does suggest that some parents think they have more of an entitlement than their colleagues.

They don't.

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested that the OP's colleague might be bitter because she hadn't been given the same preferences when her children were small.

On the other side of the coin, you seem to be bitter because you have - in your view - paid your dues by covering holidays when you were childless. And you now expect others to do the same for you. It's the 'expect' part which makes your assumption seem arrogant.

It's those kinds of 'assumptions' and 'expectations' which make it more difficult for the single, the childless, and the parents of older children to stand up to tide of displeasure (and insult) which can come their way if they want/need time off at the same time as the parents of small children.

As an aside,' the parents of older children' are often the same people as 'the children of older parents'.

That can mean that they often still have caring responsibilities - but they are now caring for a different generation.

As I have pointed out to many a manager over many a year - 'family friendly policies' and 'recognition of caring responsibilities' are complex areas, and can't be summarised as simply as 'parents of small children first'.

I suggested that one poster, who I'm zoneing out from atm, might chose to book time off at school holiday time out of spite because the tone of their reply to me gave that impression. Not sure how many times I need to repeat that I certainly don't "hate" anyone on here, it's not real life, and I don't hate anyone in real life either. Waste of energy.

I do get cross however that people on here seem to round on other posters and insinuate that they don't know their colleagues individual circumstances. There was a similar thread afew days ago where the OP was taken to task. Personally I know my colleagues very well, they are friends as well as colleagues, and I know their circumstances. I know that I am not upsetting them or causing them inconvenience by taking "some" of the school holidays off, and I cover for them in return in relation to their needs and circumstances. I do, however, take exception to the tone of some of the posters on this thread who seem to think it's unacceptable that parents might want to take some time off in the school holidays and that it's their own tough luck for having children. That's spiteful and bitter imo.

My point in saying that I have "done my bit" is that I can't see how anyone else, in the right circumstances, wouldn't do the same. If you genuinely have no need to take the six weeks from the end of July to the beginning of September off (note the words "genuinely have no need"), are you honestly saying you'd see your parent colleagues go without any time off just so you can have that time off, instead of the beginning to middle of July or September? That, imo, would be mean.

And as I've explained previously, I do "expect" because in my current work circumstances, with my current team, I can "expect". When I move to the team I'll be joining shortly, I will no longer be able to "expect" but will have to negotiate. I don't "expect" just because I've "done my bit", although I suppose that's a part of it perhaps.

Another poster mentioned nieces and nephews. One of my colleagues has nieces who live away and who sometimes visit my colleague in the school holidays, and when I've had to I work my leave around times when she's wanted leave to be with them (ie, at Easter we've had a week each). See I'm not the selfish, spiteful biatch that everyone's jumped on my back and portrayed me as for disagreeing with my opinion. But that's life on here, and it's a good job I know the difference between the interwebs and RL so it doesn't bother me, and I don't have to resort to accusing everyone who disagrees with me of hating me or being abusive.

Jx

suki1001

I've always found people without children more than reasonable when it came down to my work and having a family. I've always been happy to work a first come first served basis. I can fully appreciate that other people I've worked with without children might want to get away from it all in august somewhere lovely because they can and it's nice and hot.

It's always nice if you can be accommodated, but it's not always possible and it's one of those things - I think you have to expect it with children. I made the decision to have children, but I don't expect people to bend over backwards and if they are willing to cover me, that's very kind of them, but often it's a big ask and they've had to change their plans.

Now I'm self employed - we get one weeks holiday a year and that's it, but we make the most of it.

I've always been aware that often changing plans because of a sports day or something else is great if my employers past could do it, but it's not an obligation that they must do so.

I've often felt very privileged in the because people are usually very understanding and some kind person has stood in. I do feel like I've had special treatment for this, but i never expected it, I always asked and I never wanted to be a burden to my work colleagues. A lady worked christmas day for me because she said I had little ones - that's an incredibly kind thing to do.

I can see why people without children can often feel put out, but I'd like to say not all parent think that it is their right to own the school holidays. It's great if you can get them, but other people have lives too.

sunshine_1988

OP, I ussd to work ib a team of 5 ladies and at that time 2 of the ladies had sxhool age children. One of those ladies just so happened to be our line manager and every April without fail she would book all her holidays - plus every day after the bank hols, she didnt even compromise woth the other parent let alone the rest of the team!! Also during Xmas time she would take every Xmas eve off as she had children. As we were a small team only 1 person could be off at a time and therefore everyone else had to fit in round her.

My issue was that she never checked if any of the team wanted those particular dates off, and was selfish enough to book them all for herself. Regardless of having children - I personally think holiday dates can be such a tricky subject at work there should be a fair way of booking them - although I am yet to find it!!

OP you sound like a considerate colleague in ny opinion, I would love an office full of people like you!