Opinions Please - Work Issue.

Humphrey10

Janepig wrote: »

I suggested that one poster, who I'm zoneing out from atm, might chose to book time off at school holiday time out of spite because the tone of their reply to me gave that impression.

Have I offended you in some way? Please explain, I genuinely cannot see how saying "having children is a choice" can offend anyone. I can't see how that can be anything other than a positive statement - the alternatives would be "some people should not be allowed children" and "some people should be forced to have children", those would (and should) offend people, but "having children is a choice" is nothing but positive.

suki1001 wrote: »

I made the decision to have children, but I don't expect people to bend over backwards and if they are willing to cover me, that's very kind of them, but often it's a big ask and they've had to change their plans.

I've been happy in the past to rearrange holiday if someone else has needed the day off for whatever reason, I don't mind being asked to change my plans.
But being asked is very different to being told either you must change your plans/you cannot ever have holiday on certain dates because someone else deserves preferential treatment because they have made a certain lifestyle choice.

wik

Ohh Christmas!! What a minefield this causes!!!
As a former chef, in the years before I had children I would always offer to work the Christmas eve and sometime Christmas day shifts... Once I had my children I would offer to work the New Years eve shift, so that the peeps with no children had a chance to get out, It worked really well

I am wondering.. OP says that the lady she describes as 'grumpy' is 'grumpy... has anything happened in the last year she hasnt told you about? she has older teenagers... has she become a granny and not told you? have her kids moved away - and are coming back on Christmas eve for a visit... sometimes things just arnt cut n dried...
wik x

suki1001

Humphrey10 wrote: »

I've been happy in the past to rearrange holiday if someone else has needed the day off for whatever reason, I don't mind being asked to change my plans.
But being asked is very different to being told either you must change your plans/you cannot ever have holiday on certain dates because someone else deserves preferential treatment because they have made a certain lifestyle choice.

That's the thing isn't it - I've never met anyone who's been objectionable, most people who don't have young children are, and some have bent over backwards for me.

I cannot believe a work place would ban people without children from having school holidays off - I bet their workplace was a barrel of laughs!

coolcait

Janepig wrote: »

I suggested that one poster, who I'm zoneing out from atm, might chose to book time off at school holiday time out of spite because the tone of their reply to me gave that impression. Not sure how many times I need to repeat that I certainly don't "hate" anyone on here, it's not real life, and I don't hate anyone in real life either. Waste of energy.

I do get cross however that people on here seem to round on other posters and insinuate that they don't know their colleagues individual circumstances. There was a similar thread afew days ago where the OP was taken to task. Personally I know my colleagues very well, they are friends as well as colleagues, and I know their circumstances. I know that I am not upsetting them or causing them inconvenience by taking "some" of the school holidays off, and I cover for them in return in relation to their needs and circumstances. I do, however, take exception to the tone of some of the posters on this thread who seem to think it's unacceptable that parents might want to take some time off in the school holidays and that it's their own tough luck for having children. That's spiteful and bitter imo.

My point in saying that I have "done my bit" is that I can't see how anyone else, in the right circumstances, wouldn't do the same. If you genuinely have no need to take the six weeks from the end of July to the beginning of September off (note the words "genuinely have no need"), are you honestly saying you'd see your parent colleagues go without any time off just so you can have that time off, instead of the beginning to middle of July or September? That, imo, would be mean.

And as I've explained previously, I do "expect" because in my current work circumstances, with my current team, I can "expect". When I move to the team I'll be joining shortly, I will no longer be able to "expect" but will have to negotiate. I don't "expect" just because I've "done my bit", although I suppose that's a part of it perhaps.

Another poster mentioned nieces and nephews. One of my colleagues has nieces who live away and who sometimes visit my colleague in the school holidays, and when I've had to I work my leave around times when she's wanted leave to be with them (ie, at Easter we've had a week each). See I'm not the selfish, spiteful biatch that everyone's jumped on my back and portrayed me as for disagreeing with my opinion. But that's life on here, and it's a good job I know the difference between the interwebs and RL so it doesn't bother me, and I don't have to resort to accusing everyone who disagrees with me of hating me or being abusive.

Jx

Well, I didn't agree with your accusation that a particular poster might book time off 'out of spite'. I didn't see any 'tone' in his/her post. So I have to disagree with you on those points.

I did see a lot of 'tone' in your earlier posts on this thread and - to a far lesser extent -in this one. So this is clearly a subject where perception - be it of 'tone' or of 'motive' - is a key part of how we understand the issue.

I really don't think that any of us should be defining what constitutes a "genuine need" for a holiday at a particular time, and then imposing that definition on colleagues. No one should have to give a reason for wanting to take leave at a particular time, and then see their request put into a someone else's pecking order of 'importance'.

As you have pointed out yourself, there are some 13 weeks of school holidays each year. Why then would parents 'need' to take time off during the six weeks or so during July/August/early September - depending on the part of the UK where they live?

They may 'prefer' to have those weeks, but they don't actually 'need' them.

In fact, in terms of childcare provision, the summer weeks tend to be better catered for than Christmas/New Year or (speaking in terms of local provision) Easter.

Errata

Janepig wrote: »

If you genuinely have no need to take the six weeks from the end of July to the beginning of September off (note the words "genuinely have no need"), are you honestly saying you'd see your parent colleagues go without any time off just so you can have that time off, instead of the beginning to middle of July or September? That, imo, would be mean.
Jx

Why shouldn't those with no children to care for take their summer holiday at the height of summer? Wanting to do so doesn't make them mean, it just means they'd like to enjoy good weather for their holiday. A not unreasonable desire.

ikkle87

How old are her teens? Is it possible one of them is going away to uni or something and so xmas this year is a big deal for her?

Northern_Princess

sunshine_1988 wrote: »

OP, I ussd to work ib a team of 5 ladies and at that time 2 of the ladies had sxhool age children. One of those ladies just so happened to be our line manager and every April without fail she would book all her holidays - plus every day after the bank hols, she didnt even compromise woth the other parent let alone the rest of the team!! Also during Xmas time she would take every Xmas eve off as she had children. As we were a small team only 1 person could be off at a time and therefore everyone else had to fit in round her.

My issue was that she never checked if any of the team wanted those particular dates off, and was selfish enough to book them all for herself. Regardless of having children - I personally think holiday dates can be such a tricky subject at work there should be a fair way of booking them - although I am yet to find it!!

OP you sound like a considerate colleague in ny opinion, I would love an office full of people like you!

I find it awful that your Line Manager did that to you all. I have managed teams in the past and been the person to work more hours if any of my team needed time off rather than take it myself. You know, we actually have never had issues until today about all this. It has come completely by surprise

Thank you for your lovely comment. I'm the sort of person who would swap holidays/try to cover leave etc if I can no matter whether they have kids or not. I suppose I look at Christmas as a family time and remember well the Christmas Eve's of past I could not be with my children because I was working. Now my children are almost grown up it makes me happy to see other mums have the opportunities of enjoying Christmas Eve with their kids. I don't think that's a bad thing

Northern_Princess

ikkle87 wrote: »

How old are her teens? Is it possible one of them is going away to uni or something and so xmas this year is a big deal for her?

One is 18 one is 19 and they are both still living at home.

Northern_Princess

Spendless wrote: »

I've worked in plenty of places and not one of them has had a rule that people with kids get 1st dibs on hols, usually it's 1st come, 1st served.

I was annoyed with Mr S last year as I'd earmarked a hol when there were inset days, but 2 of his colleagues put their hols up first. My annoyance wasn't that they had got a time when my kids school was shut and they were childless, but that hubby who is the manager of that dept hadn't sorted out an adequate hol booking system, which led to 2 people in a small team being off at the same time.

The only time I can see people with kids having a gripe is for the time off between xmas and new year. I don't know if everywhere is like where I live but childcare is non existant here between 27 -31 dec and not everyone has jobs where their workplace closes down.

Childcare used to be the same here as well between Christmas and New Year.

Janepig

Errata wrote: »

Why shouldn't those with no children to care for take their summer holiday at the height of summer? Wanting to do so doesn't make them mean, it just means they'd like to enjoy good weather for their holiday. A not unreasonable desire.

I suppose my opinion is just based on what I would (or wouldn't) want to do myself. As we've found out recently, weather during the school summer holidays is never guaranteed - before I had children, and indeed when DD was "pre-school" we always took our holidays in either early to mid July or in September, and the weather was always as good, if not better than August. Plus places are quieter, and if you're booking a holiday it's much cheaper out of school holiday time (something that often gets debated on here). I suppose I just struggle to see why someone who doesn't have to take their holidays in August, would want to do so. But that's clearly my failing .

I've had a little bit less "school holiday" time off this year because I did take DD and DS out of school for 3 days in January (with the permission of the school) to coincide with a holiday we were taking for a certain birthday of mine and one of the reasons I chose to take them out of school was because there is no way I would go to the place we went during school holiday time. For cost reasons and because it would be my idea of hell on earth.

What I've also started doing is booking leave for inset days (where previously mil or my dad could have helped out for those odd days), which has also meant less time off for me during the summer. Because DD and DS are getting a bit older and keen on stuff like theme parks, inset days are good times to take them there because again, it's quieter and therefore more enjoyable. I did Legoland two years ago in August and will never ever do that again! We did it again this year on an inset day and it was very very enjoyable . Again, I'm sure this is entirely my failing - one of my friends was in Legoland with her child and her boyfriend's children yesterday, quite happily. I would rather die!!

Jx