Paypal loophole which allows people to scam you

Sugar_Coated_Owl

...so that means PayPal's list of accepted online tracking services is pointless?

susplum

Moglex wrote: »

There was an excellent and comprehensive post here a few days ago about how to do that in such a way that it is treated seriously.

Was this the thread Moglex?

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=397060

If so OP wants post #3

Avoriaz

razorbladekisses wrote: »

There really is no need for that.

No need for what?

Trying to get the thread back on topic instead of meandering down a side track about acknowledging posts and thanking posters?

Don't respond please, it is a rhetorical question.

Sugar_Coated_Owl

I'll reply if I want.

No need for your sarcastic comments.

Tirian

razorbladekisses wrote: »

...which is actually what I was giving. I don't expect a special thank you because that's just stupid but it would be nice to know that you were acknowledged for taking time to respond.

To be fair, your response said little more than "tough luck mate". I don't think I would have much response to that either. In any case, to then derail the whole thread with a rant about how under-appreciated your reply was seems a little peculiar behaviour to say the least.

Anyway, back to topic .. Paypal use automated systems to check delivery confirmations. If an online delivery confirmation service isn't compatible with their automated checking system, then they won't accept it as a valid service.

A small claims court proceeding against Paypal is liable to fail, since they don't actually have anything of yours. The buyer bought "e-money" from Paypal, and then sent it to you. You sent your goods to him. Under the user agreement with Paypal, Paypal can retrieve the "e-money" from your balance if you don't comply with the conditions they set out for transactions. It's a neat scam for them - especially since they deduct $25 "administration" fees from any amount they return to the buyer.

So anyway, net result - Paypal have received money from the buyer and credited his Paypal account with "e-money", they do not have anything of yours that you can claim. The buyer has the goods and the "e-money" that was supposed to be remitted to you to pay for the goods. Therefore they can be taken to account for obtaining goods by deception.

Judging by past experiences, I will get my head bitten off by twenty or so people here for saying this next bit, but ... if you withdraw the balance from your Paypal account into your bank account, then once it is cleared into your bank account it cannot be legally retrieved without your permission. However, Paypal WILL place a negative balance on your account and MAY attempt to persuade you that they will send debt collectors to recover money to cover that balance.

I have not heard of any case in which debt collectors have actually been sent to recover the disputed amount though. Some people here will tell you that Paypal can take money from your bank account to cover a negative Paypal balance - I am extremely doubtful of this - and my own personal experience is to the contrary. Believe who you will though.

jordan_gibson

Kingsd316 wrote: »

Surely you have his address, get yourself over there and kick the crap out of him for sending an email that was out of order and steaing your stuff :mad:

Its got to be worth it for £160!!!



(no thanks required)

I'll second that!!! Give me their address and I'll go and get the money for you!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sugar_Coated_Owl

Tirian wrote:

To be fair, your response said little more than "tough luck mate". I don't think I would have much response to that either. In any case, to then derail the whole thread with a rant about how under-appreciated your reply was seems a little peculiar behaviour to say the least.

Sorry but if a seller chooses to send a high value item by a service that is not on PayPal's accepted list then what do you expect. I don't think it was peculiar behaviour to make a comment about being blanked after giving advice (as asked for) but each to their own.

veryskint_3

springonion wrote: »

Hi,

This is the first time I've tried posting on here so a big hello to everyone and apologies if this is in the wrong place.

Just thought I'd let everyone know of a scam which I have been caught out on to the tune of £160.

I've been using Ebay for about 5 years now and never really had any real bad experiences. I've learnt you don't send the goods till the money is definately in your account. The problem is I've seem to have fallen foul of a PAYPAL process which can be used to scam things off you.

I sold a plasma TV stand and Speakers on Ebay for £160. Due to the size I was sending them by next day courier. I used Parcel2Go which is an Ebay recognised provider. In turn they actual courier was Home Delivery Network Ltd.

The buyer paid for the goods on a Friday (about 3 days after end of auction). The paypal payment was received by me about 2 in the afternoon. Thats cool - I can send the goods out now. So I call the courier company and they can pick up Monday now because the weekend is now on us. They can't do earlier. Thats cool - I send the buyer an email. All ok.

Courier picks up goods on Monday and off they go. Buyer then issues a Paypal complaint to say he hasn't received them. Paypal immiediately take the money off me pending proof of delivery. I provide tracking numbers and everything but paypal say not good enough and give the money back to buyer. I ask the courier company for details of deilvery including POD which proves the buyer received them and the exact trip that the goods take. So I appeal to Paypal. They have turned it down again saying no proof of delivery.

The problem seems to be because paypal is automated and theres no way of talking to a human. Because of this you can't argue with the computer.

The long and short of it is I am in my 2nd appeal which will probabley result in the automated refund of money to the buyer.

To make it worse I received an email from the buyer saying "unlucky" about not receiving the money.

So basically - If you accpet payment through paypal. I'd transfer the money out of your paypal account right away as its no guarantee you've actually got the money or will indeed keep it.

I guess thats a training lesson which cost me £160 !!

If you telephone paypal you will speak to a human being not automated services as i have rang them in the past.

frivolous_fay

Tirian wrote: »

Judging by past experiences, I will get my head bitten off by twenty or so people here for saying this next bit, but ... if you withdraw the balance from your Paypal account into your bank account, then once it is cleared into your bank account it cannot be legally retrieved without your permission.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=394582

Legal or not, it happened, so I don't go around telling people paypal don't do this.

Tirian wrote: »

Some people here will tell you that Paypal can take money from your bank account to cover a negative Paypal balance - I am extremely doubtful of this - and my own personal experience is to the contrary. Believe who you will though.

I have no reason to doubt the thread linked above.

Tirian

OK, I am getting a little tired of running through the same argument over and again. I specifically said legally because that's what I meant.

From BACS :

The Guarantee
If the amounts to be paid by Direct Debit or the payment dates change, the organisation collecting the payment will notify you normally 10 working days in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed.

If an error is made by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the amount paid.

If any payment is made in error, you should contact your bank or building society who are responsible for giving you a full and immediate refund - even if the original error was made by the organisation collecting the payment.

Direct Debit is one of the safest ways of paying your bills. Fraud rarely occurs because organisations using the Direct Debit Scheme go through a careful vetting process before they're authorised, and are closely monitored by the banking industry. But if money were to be taken from your account fraudulently you'd be protected by the Direct Debit Guarantee, and would be entitled to an immediate refund from your bank or building society.

Don't forget, you can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by contacting your bank or building society. We also recommend you notify the organisation concerned.

In other words, LEGALLY they have to notify you before taking any irregular payment from your account. You have the right to cancel the direct debit payment at any time simply by contacting the bank/building society.

It won't make the problem disappear - but at least you will be able to proceed with whatever dispute you may have without Paypal sitting on the money. And as such, I maintain that irrespective of what Paypal would like you to believe, if you dispute the fact that someone is owed a chargeback then you are within your LEGAL rights to cancel any direct debit payment from your bank account that Paypal may attempt to take.

EDIT: In addition, Paypal's own user agreement at no stage mentions taking money directly from your bank account.

If the seller loses a Buyer Claim or a reversal/chargeback dispute and does not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy, the seller will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction. In the case of a reversal/chargeback, sellers who do not meet the requirements of the Seller Protection Policy will also owe a £7.00 GBP reversal/chargeback fee. PayPal will seek to recover the funds from sellers by debiting their PayPal balance. If there are not sufficient funds in the seller’s PayPal balance, sellers have a choice of reimbursing PayPal by funding their PayPal account or by other means as described in the Payments (Sending, Receiving, and Withdrawals) Policy.

(Emphasis added)