Self Respect vs Responsibility

BugglyB

Seanymph wrote: »

Surely it's about teaching your kids 'reality' as opposed to 'what's fair'.

No, it's not fair that you can't go out looking like a tuppeny nora - however, go clubbing in that young lady and you are likely to be getting attention from the drunken planks that will be hard to handle, I suggest you put a cardy on and something that covers your knicker lace.

*can you tell we have these conversations?*

Of course girls aren't responsible for someone else's behaviour - we are all responsible for our own - however, having that debate with a drunken (or not) dork at 2am isn't that productive, and in REALITY if you wear clothing to, let's face it, display your sexual availability (low cut tops etc) then you will get that sort of attention.

I taught my girls they had every right to dress however they wanted (or not dress at all) - but they were likely to be hassled if they did - so I would rather they kept a little decorum and class, and conducted themselves in a manner suiting young ladies.

*Of course I still keep having the above conversation fairly regularly*

I'm not saying this isn't a good conversation to have (I think it is!), but I think its a bit of a red herring.

If we're going to talk about reality, research and practical experience shows young girls and women are more likely to be abused or assaulted by someone in a position of trust that they know. Far, far more likely than someone on the street.

What they wear shrinks in importance next to their ability to say loud and clear, no, this doesn't feel right. To making them think, I have someone I can trust that I can talk to about this.

BugglyB

Person_one wrote: »

Part of the problem is that for some reason we still have an attitude that 'nice girls' don't really enjoy sex, or feel desire. There's still a weird idea that sex is something boys want and girls have a duty to withhold.

Yeah - somewhere there in sex education has to be the message to girls that sex is supposed to be something you enjoy, that adults do it because they like the way it feels! And that if its painful or humiliating - you're doing it wrong! Even if that is what your boyfriend has seen in some porno!

aliasojo

Person_one wrote: »

A great place to start would be teaching boys that they need to respect the girls no matter what they wear and that they don't have any rights over other people's bodies, in any circumstances.

What happens with the part of society that doesn't see raising kids well as overly important?

Those families who don't respect their own kids are not going to teach their boys about respecting girls, are they?

Unless you live in an affluent area or your kids go to private school (which might lessen the chances a little), your kids will rub shoulders with this type of person at some point in their life.

You can be as idealistic as you like, I'll be teaching my daughter the realities of life.

Mojisola

aliasojo wrote: »

You can be as idealistic as you like, I'll be teaching my daughter the realities of life.

Why do people get upset at parents giving their children sensible advice? Is it just because of the sexual angle? I've advised my sons to not to flash good phones or watches around, to make sure they lock their cars, that they don't take short cuts down dark alleys in dubious neighbourhoods, and so on.

They should be able to do these things but the reality is that they would be putting themselves more at risk than if they avoided them. What's the difference between that and and what aliasojo is telling her daughter?

aliasojo

Mojisola wrote: »

Why do people get upset at parents giving their children sensible advice? Is it just because of the sexual angle? I've advised my sons to not to flash good phones or watches around, to make sure they lock their cars, that they don't take short cuts down dark alleys in dubious neighbourhoods, and so on.

They should be able to do these things but the reality is that they would be putting themselves more at risk than if they avoided them. What's the difference between that and and what aliasojo is telling her daughter?

There is no difference imo.

It's about recognising the potential issues in the world and taking steps to protect yourself.

Person_one

Mojisola wrote: »

Why do people get upset at parents giving their children sensible advice? Is it just because of the sexual angle? I've advised my sons to not to flash good phones or watches around, to make sure they lock their cars, that they don't take short cuts down dark alleys in dubious neighbourhoods, and so on.

Honestly, comparing a woman's body to an object of property is quite offensive. I really hate it when that comes up.

cottonhead

I feel strongly about this issue but I accept that some people will not agree with me. I personally wish more girls would seek to boost their self esteem by being nice, working hard etc etc rather than getting a quick boost from male attention. I dress modestly and encourage my daughter t do the same. I want both of us to be valued for the people we are , not what we look like. I was once in a traffic jam and looking out the window was a school bus. A girl was climbing up the steps and she was wearing a very short, tight skirt. I will never forget the man who was walking past at the time. His eyes were glued to this girls backside and his tongue practically on the floor. It was disgusting.
I dont mean anything bad by this but - humans are animals and the male species will get turned on by seeing a womans 'assets' on display. Only a tiny tiny proportion of men would attack a woman and actually if they are that way inclined I think they would be just as likely to pick on a fully clothed girl.
However my point is this - if a woman or girl shows off her body, she obviously doenst mind people looking at it. I dont mean she is going as far as to say 'please check me out ' ( although some obviously are!) but if its on display she clearly doenst have an issue with anyone seeing it. Men will get turned on by that and Id rather that any man looking at me or my daughter was doing so in a non sexual way. Again I dont mean any offence to men - its natural to enjoy looking at a woman but it should be in the right context and I would rather they dont do it to me or my daughter.

Person_one

aliasojo wrote: »

There is no difference imo.

It's about recognising the potential issues in the world and taking steps to protect yourself.

I think its really really important to recognise and teach that there is absolutely no way, no method, no trick, no bit of safety advice that can protect you 100% from sexual assault or abuse.

As BugglyB says, if you're going to be attacked, statistically you will probably know and trust your attacker and what you're wearing won't make one iota of difference.

The 'don't dress like a hussy' line actually does more harm than good, as it perpetuates the myth that only women who dress like hussies are at risk.

Dunroamin

Mojisola wrote: »

Why do people get upset at parents giving their children sensible advice? Is it just because of the sexual angle? I've advised my sons to not to flash good phones or watches around, to make sure they lock their cars, that they don't take short cuts down dark alleys in dubious neighbourhoods, and so on.

They should be able to do these things but the reality is that they would be putting themselves more at risk than if they avoided them. What's the difference between that and and what aliasojo is telling her daughter?

But did you also advise them of the sort of issues that Person_one has mentioned?

Person_one

cottonhead wrote: »

I feel strongly about this issue but I accept that some people will not agree with me. I personally wish more girls would seek to boost their self esteem by being nice, working hard etc etc rather than getting a quick boost from male attention. I dress modestly and encourage my daughter t do the same. I want both of us to be valued for the people we are , not what we look like. I was once in a traffic jam and looking out the window was a school bus. A girl was climbing up the steps and she was wearing a very short, tight skirt. I will never forget the man who was walking past at the time. His eyes were glued to this girls backside and his tongue practically on the floor. It was disgusting.
I dont mean anything bad by this but - humans are animals and the male species will get turned on by seeing a womans 'assets' on display. Only a tiny tiny proportion of men would attack a woman and actually if they are that way inclined I think they would be just as likely to pick on a fully clothed girl.
However my point is this - if a woman or girl shows off her body, she obviously doenst mind people looking at it. I dont mean she is going as far as to say 'please check me out ' ( although some obviously are!) but if its on display she clearly doenst have an issue with anyone seeing it. Men will get turned on by that and Id rather that any man looking at me or my daughter was doing so in a non sexual way. Again I dont mean any offence to men - its natural to enjoy looking at a woman but it should be in the right context and I would rather they dont do it to me or my daughter.

I would absolutely love it if we woke up tomorrow in a world where a woman's worth wasn't determined by her appearance! I could start eating cheese again for one thing!

However, there are serious mixed signals sent to young girls. They are bombarded with the idea that they must be sexually attractive and desirable if they want boys to like them (and of course they want boys to like them, that's human nature) but then told from another angle that looking sexy and trying to be attractive means that they deserve to be treated like objects and can't complain if they're assaulted!

Here's another illustration I think is very effective, despite the fact that it compares rape to theft which I'm not generally a fan of: