Self Respect vs Responsibility

poet123

kno wrote: »

I accept your right to an opinion but I don't need to agree with them, what's unfeminist about that?

You are not owning your opinions, you deny what you say that's an issue.

I am not denying what I said, I am denying your interpretation of it, there is a subtle but important difference.;) Other posters clearly saw that.

I accept your right to a different opinion, and your right to express that opinion without needing to resort to insult. You should try it.;)

poet123

kno wrote: »

I accept your right to an opinion but I don't need to agree with them, what's unfeminist about that?

You are not owning your opinions, you deny what you say that's an issue.

A Woman should be able to walk about in a mini skirt at midnight without the fear of being raped, it's Men who should be taught about self respect for females in this subject.

I agree, but tell me honestly can they? And as they can't should girls not take precautions to minimise risk or should they (and their parents) just say do as you will and hope for the best?

Get real.

lostinrates

skintchick wrote: »

So-called provocative clothing, getting drunk and all the other things people on here are blaming for rape may well increase your chances of being leered at and/or groped. But rape? Rape is different.
.........

Confusing lower-end sexual assault (groping, etc) with rape muddies the waters and gives leeway for people to say 'she asked for it', 'she led him on', and other abhorrent things.

.

I am sorry for your experience. I do not wish to offend you, and so i ask with utmost reect for your opinion.

Of the bits i quote i have a question. In respect to the op do you consider an issue in self presentation and self respect?
Also, i am not clear whether you are saying those who recieve a lower end sexual assualt might have 'asked for it' or a corelationbetween self presentation and lower end sexual assault?

kno

Poet123, as someone who has been victim of sexual abuse you are actually making me mad with your ignorance and patronising comments. You know fine well what you said. Disgusting.

lostinrates

kno wrote: »

Poet123, as someone who has been victim of sexual abuse you are actually making me mad with your ignorance and patronising comments. You know fine well what you said. Disgusting.

Do ypu think it incredible, in the literal sense of the word, that it is possible to have had sexual abuse and feel differently to you on the subject?

poet123

kno wrote: »

Poet123, as someone who has been victim of sexual abuse you are actually making me mad with your ignorance and patronising comments. You know fine well what you said. Disgusting.

With respect, I think you are too close to the issue to make a reasoned judgment. It may not be a good idea for you to engage in this type of debate for that reason. Obviously, given your experiences with which I do deeply sympathise you are reading into comments what is not actually there. I don' t wish to offend but I do find your tone objectionable.

kno

lostinrates wrote: »

Do ypu think it incredible, in the literal sense of the word, that it is possible to have had sexual abuse and feel differently to you on the subject?

Each to their own ofcourse, but saying that a female should damage limitation herself in order to avoid the risk of rape, so essentially saying that she is at fault is :mad:, and then denies it and tries to make me look as if I'm an idiot!

kno

poet123 wrote: »

With respect, I think you are too close to the issue to make a reasoned judgment. It may not be a good idea for you to engage in this type of debate for that reason. Obviously, given your experiences with which I do deeply sympathise you are reading into comments what is not actually there. I don' t wish to offend but I do find your tone objectionable.

Pretty much gobsmacked at this comment.

skintchick

lostinrates wrote: »

I am sorry for your experience. I do not wish to offend you, and so i ask with utmost reect for your opinion.

Of the bits i quote i have a question. In respect to the op do you consider an issue in self presentation and self respect?
Also, i am not clear whether you are saying those who recieve a lower end sexual assualt might have 'asked for it' or a corelationbetween self presentation and lower emd sexual assault?

I'll have to come back to this properly tomorrow as it is very late.

But no I am not saying that anyone ever 'asks for it' in that sense. What I am saying is that there is a difference between men who commit lower end sexual assault (of which I have also been a victim) and men who rape.

Rapists rape because they want to, and it is about power.

Generally men who grope a girl or try and kiss her without really knowing if she wants it and who then back off when she makes it clear she doesn't want it, are usually motivated by desire not power.

So, it is possible that a woman who is flirting a bit with a guy might end up on the receiving end of an unwanted grope or kiss, and there may well have been things she could have done to minimise the risk of that happening.

However, the onus should still be on men to make absolutely sure their attentions are wanted before lunging.

And, if that man is a rapist, by which I mean the type of man who will rape, then he might in those circumstances rape her.

But the difference then is that he would have raped her anyway, if he decided she was to be his victim, and no amount of not chatting, or not flirting would prevent that.

Because women have been raped wearing full clothing and having made no eye contact with their rapist. Because that is of no account to a rapist.

It is an important distinction and I'm happy to discuss it. I don't actually have an 'agenda' (I'm intrigued what people on here think this might be) but I do think we as a society need to change how we view rape and its causes.

I don't understand your question about self presentation and respect, I'm sorry, but if you rephrase it I'm happy to answer, I'm just not sure what you are asking.

lostinrates

skintchick wrote: »

I'll have to come back to this properly tomorrow as it is very late.

But no I am not saying that anyone ever 'asks for it' in that sense. What I am saying is that there is a difference between men who commit lower end sexual assault (of which I have also been a victim) and men who rape.

Rapists rape because they want to, and it is about power.

Generally men who grope a girl or try and kiss her without really knowing if she wants it and who then back off when she makes it clear she doesn't want it, are usually motivated by desire not power.

So, it is possible that a woman who is flirting a bit with a guy might end up on the receiving end of an unwanted grope or kiss, and there may well have been things she could have done to minimise the risk of that happening.

However, the onus should still be on men to make absolutely sure their attentions are wanted before lunging.

And, if that man is a rapist, by which I mean the type of man who will rape, then he might in those circumstances rape her.

But the difference then is that he would have raped her anyway, if he decided she was to be his victim, and no amount of not chatting, or not flirting would prevent that.

Because women have been raped wearing full clothing and having made no eye contact with their rapist. Because that is of no account to a rapist.

It is an important distinction and I'm happy to discuss it. I don't actually have an 'agenda' (I'm intrigued what people on here think this might be) but I do think we as a society need to change how we view rape and its causes.

I don't understand your question about self presentation and respect, I'm sorry, but if you rephrase it I'm happy to answer, I'm just not sure what you are asking.

Thanks skint chick. I am going to come back tomorrow too. My stnace of earlier remains....i wish to cause no offence nor have a row with anybody. Frankly, i am also unwilling to discuss in what context y opinions on SOME scenarios have been formed. I will say i am always somewhat ....refreshed but surprised when i meet women who say they have never received some form of unwanted ...attention of at least a minor sort.