Could this ever happen in England?

jackieb

Mojisola wrote: »

This is what I hope I can avoid if I end up like this. The doctor recognised that he was suffering and that withdrawing liquids would cause him to die sooner but he still had to endure three days before dehydration killed him. If I'm ever in the same position, I hope I can be given something to let me die there and then, not in a few day's time.

Like your Dad, my relative was cared for very well, within the limits of the regulations. I just don't see why we have to put fellow humans through this when it's against the law to treat animals in the same way.

I don't know if he did suffer with dehydration. As I said we got a book from Macmillan and it says that this is one of the ways the body prepares itself for dying, and it's actually more comfortable as they have less secretions.

This is from the Macmillan website.

At this stage, food and drink are not necessary as your body is no longer able to absorb or use them. Moistening your lips or mouth are all that’s needed. When a person who is near the end of their life stops drinking, they usually only live for a few days.

Person_one

We eat and drink to keep our organs functioning and our cells dividing. It actually makes perfect sense that we stop naturally in our last few days.

This is an aspect of what I was talking about earlier, that we aren't prepared for and used to death as a natural, although of course terribly sad, part of life.

jackieb

There's a good article here about fluids and those who are dying.

http://www.hospicepatients.org/hospic27.html

Mojisola

Person_one wrote: »

We eat and drink to keep our organs functioning and our cells dividing. It actually makes perfect sense that we stop naturally in our last few days.

This is an aspect of what I was talking about earlier, that we aren't prepared for and used to death as a natural, although of course terribly sad, part of life.

I'm not saying that a dying person should be given fluids or other interventions when it's no longer appropriate; I think that when someone reaches that stage we should be able to let them go. The point of no return has been reached - why make someone linger for days (or, like my relative, even longer) when the end is inevitable?

Person_one

Mojisola wrote: »

I'm not saying that a dying person should be given fluids or other interventions when it's no longer appropriate; I think that when someone reaches that stage we should be able to let them go. The point of no return has been reached - why make someone linger for days (or, like my relative, even longer) when the end is inevitable?

I explained earlier in the thread why I don't think euthanasia should be legalised.

Those last few days after drinking has stopped don't need to be 'lingering' or 'suffering', they can be pain free, peaceful and a time to say goodbye. Why can we not stand those last days? We used to, why are we so uncomfortable with the natural end of a life?

Mojisola

Person_one wrote: »

I explained earlier in the thread why I don't think euthanasia should be legalised.

Those last few days after drinking has stopped don't need to be 'lingering' or 'suffering', they can be pain free, peaceful and a time to say goodbye. Why can we not stand those last days? We used to, why are we so uncomfortable with the natural end of a life?

If the person is heavily sedated and receiving strong doses of morphine because without them they are distressed and in agony, that isn't a peaceful end. It can look quiet from our point of view but who knows what the dying person is feeling? Once someone is in this state, it's well past time to say goodbye.

Euthanasia is like everything else - it needs rules around it and it will be abused by some people. I think the alternative of not giving people the option to die when the point of no return has been passed is worse.

jackieb

Person_one wrote: »

I explained earlier in the thread why I don't think euthanasia should be legalised.

Those last few days after drinking has stopped don't need to be 'lingering' or 'suffering', they can be pain free, peaceful and a time to say goodbye. Why can we not stand those last days? We used to, why are we so uncomfortable with the natural end of a life?

I'd never watched someone die. My Dad never spoke about dying. The only thing he said to my Mum was that he wished that we'd all be there at the end. I'm glad we had those last few days with him. All of us stayed with him for 3 days and nights. A couple of us would pop home for half an hour for a shower and a change of clothes but that was it. We cried, at times we even laughed, but we were there for him, and it was comforting for us that we knew it was what he wanted, the only thing he'd asked for. I wasn't scared and i'm glad we were there. I've never touched someone who was dead, but I stroked and I kissed him. Until you experience it, the thought of it is scary, but honestly, I wish everyone could go the way my Dad did. It doesn't scare me now i've seen it and when my time comes I hope I go as peacefully.

HeatherintheHills

Person_one wrote: »

I explained earlier in the thread why I don't think euthanasia should be legalised.

Those last few days after drinking has stopped don't need to be 'lingering' or 'suffering', they can be pain free, peaceful and a time to say goodbye. Why can we not stand those last days? We used to, why are we so uncomfortable with the natural end of a life?

Because our expectations about death come from what we experience in life. You said earlier that we have become distanced from death and I agree with you on that point.

At one time we would have seen death much more often as children. The deaths of relatives and neighbours would not have been hidden. Even more frequently and openly we would have seen the deaths of animals and become familiar with the process.

These days, if an animal has gotten to the point of no return they are euthanised. We are told that it is cruel and probably illegal to allow them to linger, unable to eat or drink, even if pain relief and sedation are available for the time it would take. We rarely see an animal die in its own time these days so are no longer familiar with the the process of a body shutting down.

Yet when it comes to our loved ones, whose deaths are likely to be the only human ones we witness, we are asked to accept the reverse of the message we have learnt with animals. No quiet overdose while lying in the arms of a loved one for us, just for our pets. Is it any wonder that there is so much confusion, guilt and pain for relatives?

So many of us would prefer to know that when the decision to stop food and water is taken we could opt, ahead of time, to be given the overdose that stops us lingering. Is the difference between the medical instructions to withdraw hydration or allow access to lethal levels of diamorphine really so different when the result is the same except for the time taken to die?

In all honesty, how can "natural" death be acceptable for us yet seen as cruel for all other species in our care and control? It is one of the most confusing hypocrisies of our age.

gravitytolls

poet123 wrote: »

That was why we didn't take any action either, my mother was distraught, they had been married 51 years.....we couldn't put her through any more. Perhaps they rely on that?

I fought for my mother though, but as you say, in the end it made little difference.[/QUOTE

My nanny dies following appalling care in a geriatric unit. We complained, met with mediators etc., received assurances that 'lessons would be learned', 'it was the agency staff' . I wanted to take it all the way, expose them all for total lack of compassion, but grandad was satisfied with an admission of errors and an apology. He'd lost his wife, he didn't want compensation. I suggested if he received any, he could give it all to Help The Aged, but he simply couldn't face it.

The thing, there's ever so many of us on here talking about appalling care and not being able to face more than a complaint .... so how many folk is this happening to? Is it absolutely endemic in the NHS?

Person_one

gravitytolls wrote: »

The thing, there's ever so many of us on here talking about appalling care and not being able to face more than a complaint .... so how many folk is this happening to? Is it absolutely endemic in the NHS?

No.

Poor care happens, it happens more than any of us want it to, some hospitals and trusts are worse than others, but the vast majority of people receive good care from the NHS and then get on with their lives, or get on with their grieving and move on.

People with negative experiences are much much more likely to share them and dwell on them even years down the line than people who have positive or uneventful experiences. Its completely anecdotal but I can tell you that the unit I work on receives an awful lot more thank you cards and boxes of chocolates than complaints, and I suspect that's true of most wards/hospices etc.

I think its really important that people use the formal complaints and feedback procedures that every trust and all the professional bodies that register healthcare professionals have in place. That's how things get better, and how people are held accountable.