Could this ever happen in England?

Person_one

What is it you want us to say? Yes we do a terrible job? Yes, we enjoy starving people? Yes, don't worry I'll risk my job and my freedom by giving you an overdose when you want one?

I've certainly acknowledged, repeatedly, that things go wrong but when I say that's what the complaints system is for, and the fitness to practice guidelines, I just get a lot of resistance.

Seriously, what response are you after?

HeatherintheHills

Person_one wrote: »

What is it you want us to say? Yes we do a terrible job? Yes, we enjoy starving people? Yes, don't worry I'll risk my job and my freedom by giving you an overdose when you want one?

I've certainly acknowledged, repeatedly, that things go wrong but when I say that's what the complaints system is for, and the fitness to practice guidelines, I just get a lot of resistance.

Seriously, what response are you after?

I wasn't specifically targeting you Person_one. Read back over the thread, there are continual references from a number of the medically trained contributors suggesting that relatives do not understand what is right in front of their eyes, or being told they are just plain wrong.

Listening to us would be good to begin with. Understanding properly what it is we are saying would be a massive help. Then maybe, just maybe we could all work together to try to find a solution? There is a very great need to open a much larger discussion on the subject of palliative care in the UK. It is only likely to start within hospitals themselves from the look of things.

In all honesty the current system obviously isn't working, especially the complaints system. If it did work the number of complaints would be falling.

A doctor said a couple of posts ago that not all nurses fully understand DNR. You referred to that as patronising. On this anonymous thread, medical professionals won't even have an open and honest dialogue among themselves. So what hope have we poor non medical dimwits got of influencing policy?

We need you all to listen, understand and mostly, as insiders, question the morality of some medical decisions where your heads tell you it is OK but your hearts have doubts.

pm04gn

Person_one wrote: »

Sorry, but nurses know what a DNAR is.

They also know what an LOT order is, and the difference.

Sometimes doctors can be horribly patronising to nursing staff.

Thankfully it's only a small minority but they do exist, I've had the misfortune of working with some. On the whole most of the elderly care nurses I've worked with have been dedicated and knowledgeable.

pm04gn

HeatherintheHills wrote: »

Are any of the medical staff contributing to this thread taking on board what is actually being written by the relatives of patients?

It certainly doesn't look like it to me. :mad:

.

I think we can all appreciate how hard it is for relatives and that in some cases care may well have been substandard. Most of us have been unlucky enough to have been at the death of a loved one.

There is a knowledge gap between the health professionals and people using the service which can cause difficulties. Ultimately we're trying to do what's right for patients at the time based on the facts we have at the time.

I certainly aim to provide the best care for my patients and during my time in elderly care, relatives were ultimately pleased with standard of care even if a few disagreements occurred about DNR and suchlike.

Hopefully I've redeemed the health professionals a little.

andyrules

pm04gn wrote: »

I think we can all appreciate how hard it is for relatives and that in some cases care may well have been substandard. Most of us have been unlucky enough to have been at the death of a loved one.

There is a knowledge gap between the health professionals and people using the service which can cause difficulties. Ultimately we're trying to do what's right for patients at the time based on the facts we have at the time.

I certainly aim to provide the best care for my patients and during my time in elderly care, relatives were ultimately pleased with standard of care even if a few disagreements occurred about DNR and suchlike.

Hopefully I've redeemed the health professionals a little.

I don't have a problem with DNR in appropriate cases, but I do think that doctors sometimes use these factors to make poor judgments and set a poorly patient on the road to death, perhaps even denying treatment that may result in a recovery or partial recovery.

jellyhead

It's so hard. On the one hand I hope that when my time is near I can go quickly, and I wouldn't want to see my grandmother starved and thirsty, but on the other hand I don't think making euthanasia legal would necessarily be a good thing.

People would feel that they should die when they got past a certain age, not wishing to be a 'burden'. The simple fact of it being there and available would make it seem like the accepted thing to do.

If only there was a middle ground where an injection could be given only when the decision to withdraw food and drink had been made, and if there were safeguards in place to make sure that the decision was only taken under certain circumstances - not simply when a person wanted to live but their care needs had become a burden/expense.

thegirlintheattic

Dehydration provides a natural analgesia - they do not suffer.

Withdrawal of artificial hydration is NOT euthanasia. It is not done to end a life.

Here is a good source of information that lists myths and facts:
http://njtrec.org/Myths%20and%20Truths%20%20Artifical%20Hydration%20and%20Nutrition.pdf

poet123

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

Dehydration provides a natural analgesia - they do not suffer.

Withdrawal of artificial hydration is NOT euthanasia. It is not done to end a life.

Here is a good source of information that lists myths and facts:
http://njtrec.org/Myths%20and%20Truths%20%20Artifical%20Hydration%20and%20Nutrition.pdf

Do you have a source for that paper?

andyrules

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

Dehydration provides a natural analgesia - they do not suffer.

Withdrawal of artificial hydration is NOT euthanasia. It is not done to end a life.

Here is a good source of information that lists myths and facts:
http://njtrec.org/Myths%20and%20Truths%20%20Artifical%20Hydration%20and%20Nutrition.pdf

If the patient is near CERTAIN death then morphine provides a good analgesic. My concern with the LCP is that now it's out there, doctors think it's the magic answer to elderly, difficult cases. Ageism is alive and well in the medical world and it is my belief that the LCP is aiding and abetting.

Mojisola

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

Here is a good source of information that lists myths and facts:
http://njtrec.org/Myths%20and%20Truths%20%20Artifical%20Hydration%20and%20Nutrition.pdf

poet123 wrote: »

Do you have a source for that paper?

It's not a good source because it's not referenced to any studies. As Poet says - have you got the facts to prove the "truths"?