Could this ever happen in England?

Person_one

zaksmum wrote: »

We certainly were not asked for any decision! First we knew of a DNR notice on my father was when we requested his notes after he passed away, and the DNR notice was the first document we saw.

Sometimes it would be unethical to attempt to resuscitate somebody even if all the family agreed that they wanted you to.

However, I do completely agree that families need to be kept in the loop about these things.

Mojisola

Mojisola wrote: »

That's why the hospital asks for a next of kin who can make these decisions. It's best if all the family agree, otherwise the NOK makes a decision.

zaksmum wrote: »

We certainly were not asked for any decision! First we knew of a DNR notice on my father was when we requested his notes after he passed away, and the DNR notice was the first document we saw.

That does happen.

My point was in reference to jellyhead's post that family members could disagree when (if!) they were consulted. If there are disagreements then the NOK can make the final decision.

quintwins

I havent read the whole thread yet but this does happen in the uk.

MY mother in laws mother has alzimers and had been in a home for many many years, she developed pnemonia, she was taken to hospital, she had long lost her swallow and had to be feed puree food along time before that, after a month of being in they decided she wouldn't make it and took her off food and water (but kept her on a drip as apparantly this in inhumian!!!) she was already a frail old woman who weighed very little, who was rarely councious or lucid, it really was her time to go (so had been given 6 months when she first got alzimers and lived nearly 7 years) it took her a futher 69 days to pass, her 2 daughters sat by her beside everyday and most of the night, always suprised when they relised it had been 10 days, then 15 then 20, in the end it was a relief that she passed, hobbile way to go

zaksmum

It's depressing to think we're all headed there, isn't it?

My siblings and I all agreed that if my father had the slightest inkling of what was in store for him at that hospital, he'd have taken every tablet he could get his hands on and finished himself off!

poet123

I carry the guilt that I didn't/couldn't do enough for either of them at the very end though.

zaksmum

poet123 wrote: »

I carry the guilt that I didn't/couldn't do enough for either of them at the very end though.

You shouldn't feel guilty, though of course we all do at this time. You did your best and that's all anyone can ever do.

jellyhead

I typed in a long post but deleted it because I didn't want anyone to recognise the person or hospital I was talking about.

It's horrible to think that withdrawal of food or water might happen to the person I'm visiting today. She is refusing meals and hardly drinking, but when she is lucid for a few hours per day she does want a sip of her favourite drink. I don't think I could hear her ask for it and not go down to the hospital shop and buy some for her! If the patient is conscious this must be awful for the family to see

jackieb

Person_one wrote: »

A lot of people in their very last days, especially with cancer, don't want to eat anything, their body is shutting down.

There is nothing in the Liverpool care pathway about starving patients to death! It exists to make dying as comfortable and pain free as possible.

My Dad passed away last month in our local hospital, from lung cancer.

On the Saturday he stopped being able to swallow. The doctor asked us if we wanted to put him on a drip for fluids. She said that she could easily do it but it would prolong his suffering. It was really hard to say not to put him on a drip. We all felt so guilty, but we all do believe it was for the best. We had seen him suffer and we knew there was no getting better for him. We sat with him for 3 days and nights until he died. Considering the awful disease that he had, we couldn't have wished for better care for him. The staff were all lovely, and they treated my Dad with dignity.

I have a book from Macmillan and it says towards the end of life people often stop wanting to eat or drink. It says not to force people if they don't want to as this is their body's way of shutting down, and actually forcing them to eat or drink will just cause them more discomfort.

Btw, my Dad was unconscious for the last 3 days but up until he was unconscious we still gave him sips of water off a spoon when he couldn't manage a straw. Then we got artificial saliva to keep his mouth from drying, and we applied that, and petroleum jelly to his lips.

Mojisola

jackieb wrote: »

On the Saturday he stopped being able to swallow. The doctor asked us if we wanted to put him on a drip for fluids. She said that she could easily do it but it would prolong his suffering. It was really hard to say not to put him on a drip. We all felt so guilty, but we all do believe it was for the best. We had seen him suffer and we knew there was no getting better for him.

We sat with him for 3 days and nights until he died. Considering the awful disease that he had, we couldn't have wished for better care for him. The staff were all lovely, and they treated my Dad with dignity.

This is what I hope I can avoid if I end up like this. The doctor recognised that he was suffering and that withdrawing liquids would cause him to die sooner but he still had to endure three days before dehydration killed him. If I'm ever in the same position, I hope I can be given something to let me die there and then, not in a few day's time.

Like your Dad, my relative was cared for very well, within the limits of the regulations. I just don't see why we have to put fellow humans through this when it's against the law to treat animals in the same way.

jackieb

Dad also had morphine and something else for the anxiety (I can't remember what it's called). Whenever we thought he was starting to get anxious (usually about every 4 hours - you could definitely tell) we would call the staff and they'd administer more meds. His breathing slowed down, but his breathing was more relaxed than we'd seen it for months. He just seemed so peaceful compared to how he'd been before. But at the end we saw he was getting agitated again, so we called the nurse, and within 5 minutes of him having his final dose, he was dead.

My Aunt was the same. Just minutes after a final does of morphine.

It's not nice thinking that you've maybe been responsible for someone who love dying. The guilt is still there. We didn't want my Dad to go, but we wanted to see him suffer like he had been, even less.