water softner help in chosing and is this true

moonrakerz

peshi wrote: »

That's using the tablets that turn green if fully soft or red if not.

If any one wants these test tablets send me a message £5 per pack of 10 delivered.

I pay £2 from my local stockist !

Peshi admits that he is "in the trade". Whether he is tied to a particular make of machine is irrelevant.
He is obviously trying to sell the more expensive machines by attempting to "blind" potential customers with half-truths and waffle. He even recycles the one about the weight of salt. Sorry, but most people CAN lift a 25k bag of salt - I previously pointed out on this site a blatant lie from one dealer who said (in an attempt to justify blocks) that 25 k bags of granular salt were no longer available.

I have had a hunt around: some representative prices are:- block salt is 56.5p/kg, 10kg bags of granular are 34.3p/kg. I pay 23p/kg for 25kg bags. These prices are all "collect".
This means that the running costs are 145% and 49% higher using Peshi's salt - plus double the cost of buying the machine in the first place !! Madness !

If people wish to spend vast sums of money on a gold plated softener that is fine - it's their money. However it annoys me intensely to see the "garbage" that is being peddled about the so-called merits of the expensive models which do EXACTLY the same job as a machine half the price and with much lower running costs.

As I have said previously, water softener sales are now the refuge of many failed double-glazing salesmen !! BEWARE !

Matt_Filterman

Hi all.
Looks like I might have stirred a bit of a hornets nest here!
Firstly I haven't set out to offend anyone here.. This is a money saving information web-site and so people are looking for advice on good value for money products and services.
To my knowledge I have not recommended any water softeners.. just some of the control valves used on not only softeners but also a vast number of backwashing filters used world wide. Any of the aforementioned makes of valve (used in their water softening guise) should not need any servicing (let alone spares) for many years after purchase and this is specifically why I would recommend them on a money saving web site.
The advice I give on this subject is completely impartial. I was a field service engineer for 8 years working on a variety of filtration equipment but mostly softeners. Water softeners account for about 5% of my business. I am not (and will not be) tied to any supplier or manufacturer within the industry. This is the only site I have found that seems to have an open and interesting debate on what is, for most people, a fairly unimportant and uninteresting subject except if you are in the market for buying a softener. The information and advice I give is therefore aimed at anyone who just wants to cut through the rhetoric to sales-spiel to find out what is a good buy..
Hope this clarifies everything?!

Doc_N

Matt_Filterman wrote: »

Hi all.
Looks like I might have stirred a bit of a hornets nest here!
Firstly I haven't set out to offend anyone here..
.........................
Hope this clarifies everything?!

Matt, I don't believe for a minute you've offended anyone here. I think the negative responses are aimed entirely in another direction.

What you've said makes perfect sense to me, and my electrically controlled softener's needed no attention or servicing in 16 years of constant use.

One of our number here takes every opportunity to hype Kinetico whenever he can, but whilst they provide a huge profit for the retailer it's difficult to see the benefit of the high price for the customer!

abb16ott

peshi wrote: »

I like quality reliable products, Hassle free and that just work.
For instance I use Apple Macs, PCs are cheaper but you waste so much time doing things. I have a large TV, I could save money and buy a 14".
Its all about a quality of life.

I dont make much money from softeners, they are more of a passion I make money from property.
I like people to benefit from the quality products I buy and use.

So all my posts are based on quality advise, after testing and using all products mentioned.

No one has mentioned on this site about water and salt consumption.

Block salt is more expensive, HOWEVER
you will use less salt and water with the Kinetico 2020c. (all the mechanical parts always have soft water running through them.)
The long term cost is a lot less.

Also no one has commented on BS14743 do the valves other people mention comply?

Moonrakerz says every most people can lift 25KG bags. I dont think they can.
Health and safety laws say women should not lift over 20Kg without help.

Why dont we have a survey.
How much salt do people use?

On avarage I use two blocks every three weeks!!!! - and each pair cost me £3.60

moonrakerz

peshi wrote: »

So all my posts are based on quality advise, after testing and using all products mentioned.

No one has mentioned on this site about water and salt consumption.

Block salt is more expensive, HOWEVER
you will use less salt and water with the Kinetico 2020c. (all the mechanical parts always have soft water running through them.)
The long term cost is a lot less.

Absolute baloney !

So you have tested and used ALL the different makes/types of softener - I am impressed ! AND based on:- "quality advise"(sic)

An ion exchange water softener OF WHATEVER TYPE will use the same amount of salt to soften the same volume of water of the same hardness.

Again, in a previous thread on this subject another claim was that a particular softener only used a minute amount of salt - this is sheer rubbish ! To flush through and remove a set amount of calcium hardness from the resin you need the set amount of brine, if you use a miniscule amount of salt - the water is soft to start with OR the resin is NOT fully regenerated.

The claim that "(all the mechanical parts always have soft water running through them.)" is again rubbish - the only way this could be achieved is by feeding it with soft water.

The more complex the softener, the more there is to go wrong. I have never had to carry out any maintenance on any of my softeners (except as already stated cleaning out the salt tank, now and again).

peshi wrote: »

"Health and safety laws say women should not lift over 20Kg without help"

There are NO H & S Laws covering what weights people should lift, stop "quoting" things that don't exist.

I seem to spend my time regularly fending off the exaggerated claims, half truths and downright lies of water softener salesmen on this thread.
Those that have a genuine interest might find my previous post #156, on this thread, of interest. I have estimated some long term cost of ownership figures.

moonrakerz

andrew-b wrote: »

I dont think moonrakerz is slagging kinetico off at all.

Thank you Andrew - I am not slagging off Kinetico, I am pointing out the sharp practices used by far too many salesmen in this field.

Peshi, I am afraid is doing his cause more harm that good by his desperate claims.

"To answer your question Kinetico does have soft water running through all mechanical parts all the time"
Just how does the hard water get into this machine - magic ? The picture of the Kinetico shows two connections, "Hard water in" and "Soft water out" - perhaps you didn't notice that in your "research" ????

"Ill dig out my manuals that says people should not lift above at certain weight with out any help."

Don't bother - there is no LAW that says this, as you claim !

"did you know they use block salt or tablet salt"

Yes - but you forgot to mention you have to buy an extra tank for tablet salt (doesn't mention cheaper granular salt !)- more expense !

In a nutshell your claim is:

1. A machine that can cost up to twice to buy as much as a single cylinder machine
2. That uses block salt costing up to 3 times the price of loose salt
3. Or if you buy an extra salt tank you can use salt that only costs twice as much

this is cheaper overall is it ??? your maths appears to be as suspect as your claims about water softeners.

Finally - as you mention it: BS EN 14743 (Let's get the title correct for a start, shall we ? This changed years ago)

Most of this Standard is concerned with testing and "energy saving" - the amount of energy used/wasted/saved in a softener is miniscule.
The main supplier (and rival) to Kinetico is Culligan (previously Permutit) also supply machines to this Standard - but they don't cost any where near as much.

I will leave it to others to draw their own conclusions from this debate !

moonrakerz

peshi wrote: »

Yes Culligan do make machines to BS 14743 I do recommend some of there machines if some one is on a budget.

THANK YOU Peshi ! You have just proved my point admirably.

Presumably you wouldn't recommend a machine that didn't do the job, would you ? - a Culligan (or B & Q) machine will therefore do exactly the same as an expensive one !!!!

Super_Mario_3

peshi wrote: »

Moonrakerz did you know they use block salt or tablet salt.
Our house (2 people) uses 1 pack of block salt every 3 months the cost is only £4.40 and thats for the new easy hold blocks
My water hardness is 350ppm

Most people cant lift the 25Kg bags of salt.
Block salt is only 4Kg per block 8Kg per pack.

Sounds like it's not working to me!

Super_Mario_3

moonrakerz wrote: »

THANK YOU Peshi ! You have just proved my point admirably.

Presumably you wouldn't recommend a machine that didn't do the job, would you ? - a Culligan (or B & Q) machine will therefore do exactly the same as an expensive one !!!!

Be very careful with the reliability of Culligan systems, I think they were designed by FIAT (Fix It Again Tomorrow)! Plenty of independent reviews on the likes of Ciao and Review Centre to confirm this.

Matt_Filterman

peshi.
My concern with your postings is that you seem to have been brain-washed into thinking that there is only one quality brand of softener and that the rest won't work. This is just patently wrong.. anything with an Autotrol (255), Fleck (5600) 0r Clack (WS1) valve will work for years and years without any problems whatsoever..soften the water day in, day out.. and not cost the over the odds either.

I would have to agree that 25kg bags of salt are too heavy for a lot of people..
I know some customers leave the bags where they are delivered and scoop the salt into a smaller container to facilitate filling the brine tank.

As for BS EN 14743. Super Mario mentioned a make of softener that has this accreditation.. Would I recommend one?.. No. Absolutely not!.. If BS EN 14743 is supposed to be a measure of of quality and reliability then it has seriously failed to impress me.