water softner help in chosing and is this true

Matt_Filterman

Hi PTE.
I'm not well up particular brands of softeners but the Sofflow CM10 looks to use an Autotrol Logix valve which is based on the tried and tested 255 valve and so should be a good bet.
This softener should retail for £375-£400 inc VAT for the basic timed version and £475-£500 inc VAT for the metered version.
Regarding installation, it's not just the fitting of the equipment but also the setting up of the the softener valve for your water hardness and consumption. Some plumbers will no doubt be competent with the commissioning of water softeners.. some won't. It might be worth getting the manufacturer of the equipment to install, even if it costs a bit more, purely because their engineer should be fully conversant with the every aspect of the softeners capabilities and set it up properly. Also should anything not go quite to plan you won't be left with the supplier blaming the plumber and the plumber blaming the equipment!
Hope this helps.

Matt_Filterman

Just a side note, the TapWorks AD11 looks to be based on an EcoWater softener valve and should also be a safe choice. I would still however recommend anything with an Autotrol 255 or Fleck 5600 valve as any softener engineer could fix it in the very unlikely event that it should give a problem. I know these aren't new or exciting valves but they are work-horses that have admirably stood the test of time and just get on with the job.

Doc_N

Peshi - I'm curious. You'll know the answer to this. What are the normal margins that dealers work on? I'm guessing 50% mark up/33% gross profit rate on sale price. Am I somewhere near the mark, and does it vary dramatically from model to model?

PTE

Westi, Matt, thank you both for your advice. Very helpful. Yes, Westi, when I searched I could only find one company selling the Sofflow. But according to Matt's comments and your experience it sounds like it's reliable and maintainable. It'll be interesting to see what the various companies have to say when they come round.

Whilst I'd have no objection to buying a duplex model if it offered a material benefit from what I've read on the forum I am not convinced.

westi

Hi Peshi - I watched the Hydrus YouTube video as suggested. Now I'm confused.
I had been repeatedly told by dual tank system dealers that the reason that dual tanks were a good idea was so that softened water was used in the backwash / rinse thus eliminating passing hard water through the valves. The video however suggests that the benefit is to prevent contamination of the resin bed. No mention of valve contamination. Which is the correct reason? As I see it, the whole functionality of a softener is to pass hard / contaminated water through the resin bed resulting in soft water. How can a rinse / backwash with hard water therefore be harmful?
BR
Ian

Matt_Filterman

Hi westi.
I'm as confused as you!.. Why wouldn't you want hard water passing through your softener valve?.. or resin bed?.. If someone designed a water softener that couldn't have hard water passing through it might be time for them to have a career change!!.. Maybe they could go and design chocolate fire-guards or the like!!!

Matt_Filterman

peshi.
Culligan over TapWorks?.. Are you mad?
I've never forgiven them for producing the Waterside MC250.. just go to Review Centre and type the name of this product in.. You'll see what I mean...

Doc_N

I've been very impressed with my Ecowater Sensatronic 518, which I've had for almost 14 years. Still going strong, without any servicing at all. Just keeps on going. Can't praise it highly enough.

A replacement ESM15 would cost around £1100, which is an awful lot of money, but it looks to me as if the Tapworks AD15 is more or less the same model for lesss than £700. Likewise the AD11 equates to the ESM11, and the Ultra 9 to the ESM9.

Tapworks and Ecowater are effectively one and the same, with the same address etc - the only real difference seems to be much higher prices for the Ecowater models.

Is there any point to buying an Ecowater model at an inflated price?

westi

With all this discussion amounting to 'life cost' benefits of the more expensive twin tanks over a metered single tank, it got me thinking about the real numbers so I've done some calculations based on capital outlay and salt usage.

I've assumed that installation costs would be comparable for either system.

I've also taken the last post by Peshi quoting that single tank machines "use twice the amount of salt and water as Non Electric Twin tank softeners though". I reckon on my very old machine that I use about 6 bags of salt a year - tops - one every couple of months or so, so the twin tank would use 3 - that's a saving of 3 bags per year. At £7 a bag for tablet salt, that means that the twin tank saves you £21 a year. So far so good. Obviously the saving would be a lot less if you use block salt - which is supposed to be one of the big selling points.

Electricity (£3.00 pa), and differences in water usage (approx 60 litres a week) are, relatively insignificant additional costs.

However the capital cost of - eg - the Kinetico 2020C is £1262.70 RRP, but assuming you could buy from Peshi - £860 + VAT (maybe!!) - thus, give or take, £1000. A good similar sized metered single tank machine can be had for £440 / £450 inc VAT. That's a difference of £550. At £21 saving a year for the salt, I would need to keep the twin tank 26 years just to break even. (You'll pay off your mortage first!!!)

My own experience of my 10 year old machine is that maintenance needs are minimal so the argument that twin tanks will need less maintenance is not - for me - a significant issue. ie less than what? A half of zero maintenance is - zero!

I'll stick with my old timed machine for a while yet, and when I do change, I will go for the less expensive single tank, electrical, metered option. I'll pocket the difference and put it towards an ISA or something similar and even at today's low interest rates, come out on top over 26 years!!! I reckon enough to buy a new machine. :j

BR
Ian

PTE

We had the rep for TwinTec over last night. Thought I'd let you know how we got on. She was very professional, long time in the business, didnt knock any of the competitors, answered my questions (a lot of which were based on the discussions on this forum) thoroughly and there was no pressure.

Her company only carried TwinTec (Harveys) products so clearly she had a vested interest in selling her water softener. However we discussed single versus twin systems at some length. Everything she said was consistent with what has been discussed already on the forum.

In conclusion the up front costs for a single system are definitely lower and are perfectly adequate at softening water. They do use more salt (we were qouted circa £125-30 pa-single versus £100 pa-twin), they should be maintained (but people dont always do this) but the biggest disadvantage I could see was that when it regenerated it drew hard water back into the system and this would be mixed in with your softened water.

In the scheme of things this proportion of hard water in your entire soft water system is not a great deal and wouldnt materially reduce the benefits of having softwater running through your plumbing system (i.e. pipes furring etc). The downside I did see, if was to take the demo that the rep did on face value, was that even a small amount of hardwater mixed with soft water can have a large effect on the ability to make soap suds.

Obviously we'd had all the hard versus soft water demos done. We had a soft water test-tube full of suds and she added a drop or two of hardwater to this and the suds disappeared completely. If the impact is this great then it kind of defeats the object of having softened water for increasing 'sudding' of soap etc. It may be that she used some special soap agent that reacted like this. However I would be interested in anyones real life experience of this.

With respect to costs, the list price was £995+vat and there was standard £200+VAT installation. We didnt get into a deep negotiation since I explained I was looking at another company and once I'd seen them would discuss the best possible deal from both. But the impression we got was that there was some room for maneouver on the price. What was good was that our installation required some 10m of pipework + fitting of an interior stopcock (we dont have one in our property!!) and this was all included in the fixed price fitting charge.

So my rough calculations are..

Assuming approximate list price for twin system (995+200+VAT)= £1300.

Approximate list price for a single system (£500+£200+VAT) = £800.

Approximate differential £500.

Single System
Assume £30 p.a extra for salt for a single system.
Assume £50 maintenace every 2 yrs (although recommended annually - and I could potentially ignore altogether based on some folks experiences on the forum).

So assuming you did maintain the single system as above I reckon the twin system would breakeven at approximately the 10 year mark. Obviously this would be longer if you chose not to maintain the electric softener which clearly is possible.

For the twin system the ability to fit and forget (other than topping up with salt) is attractive as is it being 'maintenance free'. Also, we do have reasonably frequent power outages where we live so we'd need to remember to reset any controls (assuming they needed it or did not have some battery capacity to store inputs) which we might forget since the softener would be in a cupboard somewhere.

I know I could buy one from a B&Q and self install. But I wouldnt. I'd get my plumber so again I'd still be looking at £200ish to install so the price differential is eroded again.

I would be interested in opinions on the effect of a small amount of hardwater on the sudding abilities of soap.

So whilst based on the discussion on this forum I was starting to lean towards a single system I am now undecided. We have another company coming next week that offers Kinetico twin and Sofflow single systems. I am going to see what they have to say, mull it over a bit more, see what the best deal each can offer and then decide from there.