water softner help in chosing and is this true

westi

Hi Peshi, I'll respond to each of your many points in turn. You're in blue, I'm in red.

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Your lucky.
I agree - life is generally very good.
What is your water hardness westi?
281 ppm
Salt and water consumption does vary around the country depending how hard your water is or how you softener is set up.
No argument, although my old machine has no set up other than the number of regens it does a week. It either works or doesn't, and it does.

Most single tank softeners should be serviced as per manufacturers recommendations. (most say every year or two)
Again, no argument, but the fact is we don't and from my own experience, and from the many responses from readers to this thread, it would seem that most softeners go on and on even if totally neglected apart from feeding with salt. My own machine included.

Your calculations are way out and are based on your experience with one softener.
My calculations are based on a couple of key factors and have nothing to do with my own experience, rather input to this thread a). of yourself and b). of other readers experience / research. I have also done quite a bit of research myself in trying to decide which would be the most suitable machine for my requirements, when I get around to replacing my existing machine.

I base my opinions on what I find. I'm independent (no contract with any company to sell there machines)

You buy a softener for £500 say from B&Q (A Permutit model which is Culligan)
I can get an AD11 for £440 inc VAT delivered to my door FOC.
Pay a plumber to fit it £150 - £250 plus depending on what plumbing there needs to be done.
If you start from scratch, your installation costs whatever machine will be the same - unless you are saying that Kinetico installers do it free.
Dont use washing machine fitting to install water softeners (use big bore fittings, Wras approved hoses, Check valve).
The AD11 comes with all three valves and flexible hoses included in the price.

So thats £650 - £750
No - the relative cost is still £440. Installation for both is a common factor.
Service lets say every 3 years £200+ (for the 3 years)
So so far over 10 years thats £1250 - £1350
I've already covered that.

Not including salt, water, electric, power cuts, fiddling with settings and timers ext.
The AD11 is a metered machine with memory back-up in case of power cut, so no fiddling with settings / timers.
I acknowledge the lower salt and water usage.

So far based on the above information they both cost a similar price.
Oh no they don't.

Single tank softeners can run out of capacity, for instance you may wash your hands more, flush you toilet, have an extra bath, you ball valve is leaking slightly ext. Minimum flow rates come into this too. (you would have to constantly keep changing your settings) If you softener is set up to regenerate every 2 or 3 days.
In my household that fluctuates between 2 and 5 persons - ie a very variable water usage pattern - the 'tablet tests' have never shown hard water (and remember, I still use a very old softener)
You do not get 100% soft water.
Non electric, Twin Tank softeners dont have any of the above problems.
when one tank runs out of capacity it switches to the other and 12mins later that tank would have regenerated and ready again. Soft water back wash does not effect the tanks capacity and cleans the brine solution away better.
Plus no servicing, are you really serious - no servicing? From a mechanical point of view, you still have a valve system, as do single tank systems. What else on a softener would need servicing? Certainly not the electronics. no hassle, no power cuts, no need to switch off when you go on holiday, AD11 remembers usage pattern so when you go away it recognises that your usage has changed and doesn't regenerate until the usage pattern resumes. got guests staying no problem always soft water.

For me its very important to have 100% soft water, because of dry skin ext. I'd really like to see trhe medical data that confirms that 100% soft water is any better that say 90% soft water. And in any event, to get to 90% you would have to have some serious dilution of your storage capacity.
With single tank softeners my skin can tell the difference.

Salt 25Kg bags at B&Q for £11 (westi says he use 6 bags) You can get cheeper. I can buy tablet salt here for £7.00 per bag.

Block salt does cost more but twin tanks use allot less it works out cheeper and it more convenient, If you want to penny pinch use tablet salt. But that would involve more hassle!!

Most single tank softeners use 80ltrs AD11 is 49 litres per regeneration. Twin tanks use 18lts 18.9 (yes two tanks so thats 36lts 37.8) Single tanks take on average 1hour to regen (at 3.00am in the morning - so what?) , twin tanks take 12mins.

Twin tanks will last over 20 years plus. Single tank systems could last the same if serviced regular if you could still get the parts. But on average single tanks last allot less. Not according to contributors to this thread.

Some of you may say different. (based on)
All the above information is my opinion and based on actual facts.

If a company offers you a single tank softener over a twin tank softener they must make most of there money from servicing.

There is also allot of cheap Chinese imports out there that wont even make it to 4 years. Not suggesting anyone buys the cheapest possible.

Resin media varies too.
A quality resin should last on average 20 years some cheap stuff last 5.
Some resin has a higher capacity than others too.

Why do water softener engineers go out every day servicing and fixing single tank softeners? (because they were sold the wrong machine in the first place) Are you suggeting that nobody has to service twin tank systems?

You wont find many people that wont recommend Twin tank softeners. Once you had one you wont go back.

At the end of the day any softener is better than no softener, all of them have huge benefits. They will all save you money and the luxury of soft water is just the best. (I'm sure 100% of people would agree soft water is better than hard water.) Just some do it better than others. I don't disagree, I just challenge the need for a 'Rolls Royce' to drive me around. There are many quality alternatives that perform their function perfectly well. In the softener world, the difference in initial outlay between the Rolls Royce and the BMW seems to be very significant. I know I'd be very happy to have a BMW.

Lets have a poll on it. Soft water or Hard water. Which do you prefer.

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I would add that I am not a dealer or service organisation. I am a private individual, so I have no axe to grind for Tapworks. On a features / cost basis though - yes - I have selected the AD11, and will be happy to live with the consequences, with 550 notes still in my pocket.

BR
Ian

Torkijo

Hi

New to the world of softeners and wanted to clarify around drinking water - is it OK to drink water thats been through a softener or is it true you shouldn't and you should have a bypass to a tap and only use that for drinking?

Children are 1 1/2 and nearly 5 if that makes a difference -also, does water hardness affect pets?

Torkijo

peshi wrote: »

The recommendation is to have a separate drinking water tap.
The European limit for sodium in the water is 200ppm.
If you have hard water over 400ppm then this would probably take the sodium to above that limit. (with a softener fitted) Also some softeners don't wash away all the contents off the brine solution away properly so this will give a higher sodium content.

Most normal tap water has around 40ppm of sodium content.

Most people get a limescale reducing drinking water filter which comes with a tap.
(These are fitted before the softener) Or use some kind of carbon filter (you will still get limescale on the drinking water tap with just carbon)

These will reduce chlorine bad tastes ext.

The limescale reducing filters will get rid off the scum you get on the top of your tea and improve the taste.

With regards to pets washing them with soft water is better for there skin. I don't know about there drinking water.

Thanks

Thats a problem then as kids drink out of different taps and from the bath (as kids do!)

Could you put a whole house water filter on after the softener to remove the sodium and then make the water usable by all?

Torkijo

What is your water hardness?
Not sure on the exact level, just know its hard - we live in Warwickshire.

Your Kids would be fine they will get 100x more sodium from a packet of crisps than 2 lts of water - thats why they only get crisps when visiting Granny (I daren't argue with her!) :-)

Torkijo

peshi wrote: »

They would have to drink about 30 litres of water the reach the daily allowance.
Nothing to worry about.
Talk to a company near where you live and ask for a demonstration and give them a list of questions you have.

God that would fill a lot of nappies in our youngest!!

Thanks for your help.

westi

Matt_Filterman wrote: »

Just a side note, the TapWorks AD11 looks to be based on an EcoWater softener valve and should also be a safe choice. I would still however recommend anything with an Autotrol 255 or Fleck 5600 valve as any softener engineer could fix it in the very unlikely event that it should give a problem. I know these aren't new or exciting valves but they are work-horses that have admirably stood the test of time and just get on with the job.

Hi Matt,

My Sofflow 10T is now working fine, and I'm reluctant to bin it just because it is old. I have checked out what valve it uses. It appears to be an Autotrol 255 , but with a plain electrical timer. Can this timer be replaced - cost effectively - with an electronic timer to eliminate my main gripe of having to reset the time after power loss - which occurs frequently where we live?

BR
Ian

Matt_Filterman

Hi Westi.
To convert your existing softener into an electronic volumetric 460 type would entail adding a flow meter to the back of the unit and obviously a new control module to the front. Not a particularly difficult task if you are a competent at DIY. I'm 99.9% sure though that even the electronic version of this valve does not have a back up battery to keep the clock advancing during a power cut and so would not overcome your problem. The time on the 440 mechanical controller is so easy to adjust that you'd certainly be better off leaving it as it is.
If you do still want to carry this alteration out, the parts should be available at a local independent softener supplier. I would love to supply the parts but won't attempt to trade through this site on principal .. unlike some!

westi

Thanks Matt,
I've lived with it quite happily for 10 years, another couple are not going to hurt me. Perhaps then I'll get a new machine and maybe enter this whole discussion again. :rolleyes:

Maybe by then there will be a model which enables me to make phone calls and remotely program my TV - and all without electricity!! :cool:
BR
Ian

:beer:

Matt_Filterman

Nice one Westi!
Like me you sound a bit cynical about some of the total rubbish espoused by some on this thread for the purposes of attempting to promote a certain brand of softener.
You will probably have picked up on the latest one.. the " buy a softener that flushes ALL of the brine out during the final rinse cycle" garbage.. anyone reading this thread would believe that only one brand of softener can do this when in fact they all rinse the brine out perfectly well..
The other one is the "watch out for minimum flow rates otherwise they won't work" tripe. The fact of the matter is as you reduce the water velocity through a softener resin bed you increase the time the water is in contact with the resin giving the base exchange process an even better chance of being fully completed..
Continuous, very low flow rates can cause 'channeling' whereby the water finds the route of least resistance through the resin bed. This can mean that only a small proportion of the bed is used for softening causing problems. This would however affect all softeners in the same way and is quite uncommon..
My concern is that these snippets of total b****cks are neatly inserted amongst perfectly reasonable pieces of useful information. My guess is this this is done to subliminally add credence to the misleading information used by some to sell a certain brand of expensive softener..
Or am I being too cynical?

westi

Hi Matt,

Despite my 'subtle' scepticism, I have actually found this thread very useful.

I came to the thread with a practical aptitude, but knowing little about softeners in particular. With careful filtering [sic!], I have gleaned a lot of useful information which has a). enabled me to sort my immediate problem, and thus save money - which is the purpose of this site, b). provided a useful resource to enable me to research further and make a decision on the direction to go once I actually decide to buy a replacement - which could be a long way off - but again spending far less than I may have done had I not come here!

As with all open forums, there are views and counter views, and varying motives of contributors, so it is the responsibility of the reader to use a little commonsense to sort the dross from the valuable.

So - my thanks to ALL contributors - even the ones I clearly disagree with - as that's the only way to come to a balanced view.

BR
Ian