water softner help in chosing and is this true

Matt_Filterman

Hi PTE.
To answer your question, what the softener company said was 100% correct. If in the unlikely event you use any water during the middle of the night during the 59 minutes that the softener is in regeneration (usually every third night) then you might put some unsoftened water into your system.
It was interesting to see that the company backed up what moonrakerz has been saying for ages i.e. that claims of substantial salt savings for the twin tank systems are just plain wrong.
Regarding the price quoted for the softener this looks to be spot-on. I'm afraid the installation costs also look to be very reasonable, especially considering the long pipe runs and the fitting of a new stop-!!!!.
Thank-you for your contributions to this thread and I'm glad your experiences with the softener companies you have come in contact with have been good.
Regards Matt

Matt_Filterman

Looks like I should have spelt stopcock like you PTE rather than hyphenating it! I have a feeling the offensive language filter on this site might be a bit over-zealous.. sorry.. overzealous!!!

moonrakerz

PTE wrote: »

According to this company a single cylinder softener would only draw hardened water into the system when regenerating if the water system was used (say flushing the toilet) at 2:00 in the morning during the regeneration cycle. Otherwise it was continuous softened water.

Absolutely spot on ! 6 or 9 litres of hard water will have ZERO effect. Of course, if you are really saving money you wouldn't flush the toilet anyway :rolleyes: Yuk !

PTE wrote: »

The thing that got me though was the installation fee.

Interesting point - £300 installation for a £300 softener sounds dreadful ! BUT - £300 installation on a £1000 machine sounds almost reasonable - goody, goody more profit !

Glad to see you have done your homework on this and seen through the "bovine manure".

Enjoy your softened water from your single cylinder machine - a true MSE !

westi

peshi wrote: »

Single tank systems are better than nothing, but if you want quality and a hassle free life choose something different.
Single tank systems can have capacity issues, leak salt to service, need allot more setting up you have to guess how much water you use, if this changes you have to re set it up. Single tank systems use more salt and water. Fact

Peshi,

Your statement above is quite outrageous! You're only using the cheapest of the cheap machines as a comparison which is completely biased.

Modern single tank systems - available for half the price of the 'good' quality twin tanks, are for the most part, all metered, which means that they measure and store data related to your usage pattern, and are therefore quite capable of determining varying usage volume patterns and only regenerate when necessary, at a time of your choosing so as to fit best your lifestyle. Only the worst of the worst would leak salt to the system, and of the ones that I have looked at, set-up is a doddle. You simply contact your local water board - or go to their web site - and read off your water hardness level, and dial a number into your machine corresponding to that value. They also use this metered information to ensure that when you go on holiday, and thus stop using water, they do not regenerate unnecessarily. You really are being a naughty boy suggesting that softeners are akin to rocket science!

The volume of hard water you are likely to introduce to the system should you flush the loo between 2.00am and 3.00am, assuming you coincide with the regeneration every third day or so, is miniscule compared to total system volume - and I am very sure that you would not even be aware of the difference.

There are several very useful things your twin tanks cannot do. Like keeping in memory how much water has actually been used in a preceding period. Storing when precisely the last regeneration was performed, recording how much salt was used for regeneration, or retaining other useful data - because the twin tanks have no electricity - therefore no memory.

The problem with a machine that you stick in the cupboard and forget about is that you are never quite sure that it is working properly. With a twin tank, you will never know when it last regenerated, how much water it uses to regenerate, how much salt it used in regeneration, how much water you have used between regenerations. You have to rely on the initial set-up, and you will only know things are wrong when you have scale forming in your kettle or shower head. But that's your choice.

My recomendation to anyone planning to buy a softener is not to be seduced buy the smooth sales pitch from the top end sellers, but to weigh up the cost / benefits of the various systems available.

If you have tons of money and don't care about the capital cost - go ahead and buy a twin tank - in fact buy the best and most expensive you can find. If however, you care about the money you spend, buy a good quality metered machine for around half the price. I am sure you will be equally happy with either. You will have to pay roughly the same for installation whichever system, as the pipework requirements are identical, and over a period of time the differences in salt and water usage will be so small as to be, in practical terms, irrelevant.

I know where my preference is.

BR
Ian

moonrakerz

westi wrote: »

Peshi,

Your statement above is quite outrageous! You're only using the cheapest of the cheap machines as a comparison which is completely biased.

Dare I disagree with you - ever so slightly ?

Peshi is making up falsehoods about certain types of softener to support his argument.
I have one from B & Q ( the second one I have had - in a different house). Both were the "cheapest of the cheap".
The mechanisation of the internal workings of ANY type of Ion Exchange softener is the same. To claim otherwise is rubbish !

Peshi says:

"Single tank systems can have capacity issues, leak salt to service, need allot more setting up you have to guess how much water you use, if this changes you have to re set it up. Single tank systems use more salt and water."

These assertions are complete and utter falsehoods (regardless of the type and cost of the machine - AND Peshi knows it !)
Please don't imply that you agree with him

Otherwise, I totally agree with you !

Avoriaz

westi wrote: »

…The problem with a machine that you stick in the cupboard and forget about is that you are never quite sure that it is working properly. With a twin tank, you will never know when it last regenerated, how much water it uses to regenerate, how much salt it used in regeneration, how much water you have used between regenerations. You have to rely on the initial set-up, and you will only know things are wrong when you have scale forming in your kettle or shower head. But that's your choice…

I don’t want to get drawn into the ongoing “debate” about the merits of single and double tank softeners as I can see both sides but I am not sure I can agree with that part of your post.

On the odd occasion when I forget to add salt to our softener I notice the water getting harder in the shower long before scale would start to build up in the shower head. When that happens I add salt and the water is fully soft again in a day or two. We have a traditional cold water storage tank in the loft.

I don’t want to know when my softener regenerates or how long it is since the last regeneration. I want a fit and forget softener that only requires salt to be added.

Our water is metered and I would soon notice a significant change in water usage from the bills. I would also probably notice a significant change in salt usage.

Am I at risk of a huge increase in water charges if the softener develops an unnoticed fault. That hasn’t happened yet in over 20 years.


For the record, (and I don't want to join in the row ) my own personal preference is for Kinetico. We bought a Kinetico twin tank softener in about 1987 and it lasted about 20 years. We replaced it with a refurbished Kinetico 2020C that I bought on Ebay for about £380. No way was I paying over £1,000 for a new one. That has been fine for the last couple of years. Friends have bought cheaper single tank machines but they have not lasted anything as long as our Kinetico. Overall we have probably paid about the same amount of money each so we are both equally happy with our choices.

Doc_N

moonrakerz wrote: »

Softeners do not need servicing ! Just a clean out of the salt tank very occasionally.
If you have been sold a softener that needs servicing you have been conned !
I have had a (single cylinder) softener since the 70s - never had any of them serviced - NEVER had a problem.

Beware of water softener salesmen !!!!

I'd go along with that. My Ecowater Sensatronic 518 has been going strong without any servicing at all for nearly 14 years.

Excellent machines, but a replacement Ecowater ESM15 would cost around £1100. If I were looking to replace it, though, I'd go for the Tapworks AD15 is basically the same model for less than £700. Likewise the AD11 (about £500) equates to the ESM11, and the Ultra 9 to the ESM9.

Tapworks and Ecowater are effectively one and the same, with the same address etc - the only real difference looks to be the much higher prices for the Ecowater models. I've no axe to grind at all (unlike some here) but if you want a good reliable softener with a good reputation it might be worth looking at the Ecowater models - then buying the Tapworks equivalent to get a lower price.

westi

moonrakerz wrote: »

Please don't imply that you agree with him

Not my intention at all!

BR Ian

Matt_Filterman

peshi.
It is pure arrogance on your behalf if you think you are the only person on this thread that has hands-on experience of working with softeners. You bleat and whine like some petulant toddler and bring not only the brand of softener you obviously want to promote into disrepute, but also yourself.
And guess what peshi.. people don't come to a money saving web site to buy £100 chisels... Fact!

moonrakerz

peshi wrote: »

Moonrakers is full of rubbish his advise on other posts are completely stupid and could be very harmful to someone's health. (Sent him a PM with regards to it)
For instance some on was asking about advise on asbestos. He advised not to bother listening to any one in the trade.

YET AGAIN ! Peshi is NOT telling the truth.

My "advise" with regard to asbestos was that there were a lot of cowboys operating in this area - and a link to a site which supported this.
My actual advice was to ask someone impartial such as your Local Authority.

I can only assume that yet another of Peshi's "businesses is abestos disposal !