water softner help in chosing and is this true

dfarry

Timed/Volume controlled... how does this differ to what I have and which is best?

Matt_Filterman

The MC250 you have is a volume controlled softener i.e. it has a built in water meter that calculates your water usage patterns and anticipates when the best time will be to regenerate.
The advantage of this volume controlled regeneration is that the salt usage is in direct proportion to the water usage.. therefore if you use less water you you'll use less salt..
A timed softener will regenerate every few days depending on how it is set up, regardless of water consumption.
Which is best is a good question. Volumetric softeners cost quite a lot more money than timed softeners and are inherently more complicated. They will however use less salt if correctly set up.
Timed softeners are cheaper, simpler and as a result are slightly more reliable over a prolonged period of time.. they will however continue to use salt even if you go on holiday for a couple of weeks unless you remember to turn them off.
If you have a very constant water usage and don't go on holiday too often then go for a timed softener. If your water usage patterns fluctuate, or you go away a lot, then you might be better with a volume controlled unit.
Hope this helps.
Matt.

moonrakerz

Just to add to Matt's post above............

The thing to remember about water softeners is that there is NO such thing as hard water or soft water.

The dividing line between the two is chosen by the softener manufacturer or yourself and is completely arbitrary. Water doesn't suddenly cross a magic line and become soft.
If you trawl the web, you will struggle to find two sites that agree on a figure for "soft", "hard" or "very hard". Just to confuse things even more there are two widely used methods of stating water hardness: either ppm (Parts Per Million) or GPG (Grains Per (US) Gallon). 1 GPG = 14.3 ppm !!

A metered softener will regenerate after so many gals/ltrs of water.
A non metered softener will regenerate every x days, set by the user, usually at 2 in the morning.

Both types of machine will supply much softer water immediately after regenerating and much harder water just before another regeneration. A metered machine may keep your softness within a closer tolerance band, but a timed softener can be just as accurate. If a timed softener is incorrectly set up, your water may be a bit harder at times - BUT, at times it will be bit softer.
A timed softener may use more salt - but you will get softer water for the use of that extra salt !
It doesn't take long to set up a timed machine to your circumstances and if need be you can make it regenerate at any time.

I won't go into twin cylinder machines - I have made clear my opinions on those machines enough times !!

walmslei

Just to echo the sentiments of the previous posts - If you wish to buy a product with a bespoke valve and bespoke engineering expect to pay a great deal more for a product which will have expensive servicing options, restricted parts availability and such.

Always look at the financial impact of savings, as opposed to the wow factor percentage figures you'll see quoted. A 15% saving on water may sound impressive, but when you consider on an average 10 litre softener that equates to about 4 to 6 litres of water per regeneration SAVED, which if your softener regenerated every other night means you've saved a whole cubic metre of water per year (about £1.50 in terms of cost).

Salt is a necessity - There are various technologies which can help reduce salt wastage but if you ever hear anyone tell you their softener only uses 25kg of salt every six months, the chances are it is broken - Get them to test their water. I have a metered softener in a 3 bed house and I use a bag of salt every six weeks or so at a cost of about £6 a bag. Again, if a softener was 20% more efficient, whilst sounding impressive, factor your costs in again - £10 a year saved.

Salt efficiency is also usually based on salt used not cost - Always check out the type of salt required and look for granular or tablet fed machines - Block Salt will always work out more expensive, but you are paying for convienience there.

So what exactly are you buying if you buy a £1000 plus softener? The techonology is seriously real basic chemistry, the valve head does 95% plus of the work, and the brine tank and cylinder are pretty much industry standard parts no matter which softeners you buy. Salesman, advertising, tooling costs for bespoke bits of plastic and such that hang off it - You get the idea.

My advice is look at a standard £350 to £400 piece of kit, maybe try and get metered since it removes the hassle of worrying about regenerations - if you go away for the weekend or what not, it just takes care of itself. Buy something like Fleck - most commercial equipment in the UK we supply goes out with Fleck valves - why? Because Fleck valves are simple and they work - you can get parts cheap, anyone can service one, and their reliability is exceptional. We do not sell service contracts for Fleck valves/softeners as standard - we sell the softener and occasionally, very occasionally, when one goes wrong, we can generally fix them very very quickly - moreover, any good softener firm will be able to, so you are not restricted to using the company you purchased the kit from.

Wait for the anti-Fleck valve posts, which you tend to find - Truth is, you don't see these fancy bespoke and self branded super-efficient valves on much larger commercial kit, and if I was a consumer with relatively little knowledge of my market, I might be incline to ask why you don't - if they are that good!

The point above is valid - Duplex softeners (twin tank) are not really useful in a domestic environment. Properly setup a softener will trip it's regeneration cycle with a 'reserve' capacity to hand. For example, take a softener which mathematically ought to regenerate every 1000 litres (round figures) - you'd set the regeneration point to be maybe 850 or 900 litres.

This means if your softener regenerates usually at 2am in the morning, then trip it past 850 litres of water in it's cycle at say 4pm, then you will usually have soft water extending to the rest of the evening, since the resin has that bit extra left in it.

Likewise if you push the softener to say only 840 litres into it's cycle and go to bed (i.e a regeneration doesn't take place) you'll still have a good supply of soft water to carry you through the next day (or the best part of it).

It is all about balance, but a softener is a good long term investment - I have one which I bought before I started for for a water filter company (I actually now work for the company I bought one off, Ironically) but I have to say that in Lincolnshire with out water, and given I have a combi boiler, I consider it to be a good buy personally.

The_Wall

A lot of good information on this thread. My only problem is I don't know what we have.

The water softner was already installed in the house we moved into, and the previous occuptants, either never had or didn't leave any instructions.

What I do know is that it is a Kinetico Compak, installed around 1989 since there is a sticker on the side with that year as the start of the extended warranty.

Looking at it there does appear to be two tanks, so is this a duplex? Also some where in this thread it mentions about cleaning them. But this is something that has never been done by us. Should it be? And how would you do it?

Will also have to keep a record of how often we go through a bag of salt because whilst I don't think a bag last 6 months it certainly last longer than 6 weeks. but then there are only the two of us most of the time.

Plus I have definately heard the softner go through regeneration during the day, so can only assume that it regenerates when needed, rather than every night at a certain time. Would that be correct for the model we have?

Thanks

Matt_Filterman

Hi The_Wall.
If your softener has two tanks inside the cabinet, and it regenerates at different times during the day or night, it will be a duplex.
Regarding the cleaning mentioned in previous posts.. it is the inside of the cabinet where the salt is stored that might need the occasional attention. Over a period of time the insoluble impurities found in the softener salt (plus anything else that finds its way in) will settle on the bottom of the of the cabinet and form a 'mush'.. this could eventually block any screens on the brine draw system and cause the softener to malfunction.
The best way to clean out the cabinet is to let the salt get used up to a point where the water level is a couple of inches above the salt level (remember where the water level is for later). At this point you need a couple of buckets, something to cover the floor, a small jug and a pair of rubber gloves to manually scoop all of the good salt out of the cabinet into one of the buckets. It's a fairly messy job and there's always a lot more salt left in the cabinet than you would think!
Once you've got the decent salt out you'll be left with the stuff you don't want. Clear this out into the other bucket and dispose of it safely. Give the inside of the cabinet a good rinse with warm water (don't use any soaps or detergents) and try to swill out any debris from behind the tanks.
Once cleaned out put the good salt back into the cabinet and then fill with water to the same level it was before you started the cleaning operation.
Finally top up the salt so it just covers the water and then monitor the the salt/water levels over the next few days. If everything is O.K. you should see the salt level go down slowly below the water level over a period of time. Once you are happy that everything is working fine, top up the cabinet with salt.
The idea behind just topping the salt up so it covers the water makes it much easier to see if the salt has gone down even by just a small amount. Also if there is a problem and you need to gain access to the brine pick up pipe you don't have to empty the whole cabinet.. just the bit you've added.
As far as salt consumption is concerned, if there are only two of you and you live in a moderate to hard water area a 25kg bag of salt could last between six and 12 weeks.
Hope this all makes sense.
Matt

The_Wall

Matt,

Makes perfect sense.

Just have to wait for the salt to get used up a bit first, as I only topped it up recently, before I can clean.

Thanks

fishpond09

westi wrote: »

Hi PTE,

You must have gone to the same supplier (for the Sofflow machine) as for my original machine, if I am not mistaken as I cannot see anyone other than they in this country supplying Sofflow. Neither can I find anything on Sofflow on the web - unless you're looking for a bidet.

My current machine is in fact a Sofflow T10 (electromechanical timer) which has worked, and is still working OK (now) after 10 years, with the only attention being given it, that of salt top-up.

The only reason I discounted that machine was based on price ( I have found the AD11 for £440 incl VAT and delivery compared to about £585 for the Sofflow) and the fact that there seemed to be no independent information available on the Sofflow.

Regarding installation - download the Owner Manual from the Tapworks web site. Has all the installation and set-up information you will need - and whole bunch more of useful information - good bedtime reading . Installation is not rocket science. Just needs three valves (supplied with the softener) inserted into the rising main for the softener and a spur off the rising main for a seperate unsoftened tap - usually a small fawcet on the side of your kitchen sink. Any registered plumber should be able to do this easily.

Hi Doc N,

The best price I've been able to find for the 2020C is £860 (by going direct to dealers). Now there's a challenge Peshi - can you beat that? I suspect the reason there are no Kinetico prices available on-line is that they do not want to compete on price. They want the opportunity to sell their product and all its 'benefits' which in their minds, justifies the high price.

BR
Ian

Hi Ian

Can you please let me know which dealer that was? I am looking to buy a 2020c, but can't seem to get below £900 right now.

Thanks,
Steve

EDIT: No longer needed, Best price that I have managed to get for the 2020c is £840 from a dealer.

titchy

Hi All,

Can anyone tell me why I should not use tablet salt in my block salt softner?
Or is there something I should do to make it accept tablet salt?

I do not see any point paying extra for the salt if I do not have to.

Thanks,
Chris

Matt_Filterman

Hi Chris.
You can use tablet salt in a block salt softener but you will find that you have to top it up quite frequently. Apparently there is a device you can fix to some of these units that presumably acts like a hopper to increase the stored capacity of salt available for the softener to use. I'm sure it would be quite easy to improvise a device that would do the same thing though.

Matt