water softner help in chosing and is this true

dazandemma

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread, and was directed here as looking to research on a getting a water softerner.

I read the majority of posts on here but have a few questions which I'm sure some of the experts here will be able to help.

What is meant by the terms "Metered" and "Timer"?

How often does the water softner need to be regenerated? As on a water meter.

Is installation simple? Going by this thread I'd be tempted for an electric model as cheaper and just as good. When it says requries electric is it just simply a plug? As I should be able to plug in nr the dishwasher.

How do I determine if I need a High-Flow model etc

TIA

Darren

Doc_N

dazandemma wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread, and was directed here as looking to research on a getting a water softerner.

I read the majority of posts on here but have a few questions which I'm sure some of the experts here will be able to help.

What is meant by the terms "Metered" and "Timer"?

A softener with a meter will know how much water you've used and use that information to determine when it next needs to regenerate. A timer will simply regenerate every so many days, according to the number of days you set it for. Even better is the sort that has a predictive system built in, which calculates the best time to regenerate from your actual day by day usage.

How often does the water softner need to be regenerated? As on a water meter.

Depends entirely on your usage and the capacity of the softener you go for. Mine regenerates every 4 - 6 days, but if we have people staying it will be every 2 - 3 days. My advice would be to go for the highest capacity you can afford, simply because it will need to regenerate less frequently and prolong its working life, with less servicing.

Is installation simple? Going by this thread I'd be tempted for an electric model as cheaper and just as good. When it says requries electric is it just simply a plug? As I should be able to plug in nr the dishwasher.

It's simple if you're a competent DIY plumber. The plumbing's straightforward enough, but if you're not competent in that area, get a plumber in. You will need a nearby drain point though. As for electrics, you just need a plug.

How do I determine if I need a High-Flow model etc

Sorry - I'll leave that one to an expert.

TIA

Darren

Please see above - hope it helps.

westi

Hi

What a minefield - getting sensible advice about softeners.

I stumbled across this thread whilst desperately looking for objective, unbiased advise on softeners as my 10 year old 10 litre electromechanically controlled softener no longer appeared to be working. I acquired a pack of the tablets from a local softener supplier for just £1.00. Best price I've seen yet in the thread!! [Kinetico dealer actually ;-) and yes - I got all the spiel about why I should buy one]. [I also liked the tip about using only half a tablet]. I did enquire about a service, but the call-out / service charge quoted was unattractive. Anyway - after 10 years, I reckoned that I should probably simply replace it.

The thread has certainly made very interesting reading and has definitely helped me make up my mind what to do.

I will not be buying the Kinetico 2020c (or any other twin tank, non-electric) , which as a techy, I had been leaning towards, even though it appeared to be a very well engineered machine and has a number of interesting and significant benefits 1). Constant availability of soft water 24/7 2).Regeneration is performed using soft water generated in the second tank, reducing the likelyhood of scale damage in the valve / turbine metering mechanism. 3). No electrical supply required. and 4). Relatively small unit size. There may be more but let's keep it simple. It also has a number of notable disadvantages. 1). Cost is at least double that of a single tank system - payback period around double that of single tank system. 2). At that price for an all singing / all dancing machine I would expect it to have all the bells and whistles too eg. Data storage on water usage, regeneration frequency, salt usage etc etc, however, such features are impossible without electricity!!! Basically these are, in my view, no doubt wonderful machines, but gross overkill for most domestic situations. I don't need soft water 24/7. In the very unlikely event that I do have a shower at 2.00 am, and the softener is regenerating at that very moment, I can't see that it will make any real difference if the storage tank, which is where my shower water comes from, has a relatively small amount of hard water passed into it for a short time, and I certainly don't want to pay that amount of money if it is not really necessary..

So now my thoughts went back to selecting a single tank system. Here I have a multitude of choices. Do I go for a simple timer based system or a metered system? Decided not to go for just a timed unit. My present one does that, and with fairly frequent power outages in my area, if I forget to reset the clock, it can regenerate at some obscure time of day, which is a bit of a nuisance. So it's to be an electronic timer, maybe with metering. Still loads of choice. Eventually I hit on the TapWorks AD11, which ticked just about all the boxes. I looked around the web and I can get this for £440, which is well within budget - that's a saving of £420 on the best price I could find for the 2020c. As I already have a softener, fitting will be a doddle.

Then I remembered a couple of things I read in the thread. 1). That in a period of ten years, little can really go wrong with the resin bed, 2). With a little TLC a softener should last for at least a couple of decades. So I had another look at my softener, cleaned out the brine tank, and sure enough, the gunge that had accumulated was horrible. Cleaned out the various filters, and checked over all the fittings. And then I discovered the problem. The brine uptake pipe union was loose, and as fast as the brine was being sucked up for regeneration, it was dripping back into the brine tank, hence ineffective regeneration. Tightened everything up, ran a full regeneration cycle, and now my tablets identify lovely 'green' soft water. No doubt someone will suggest that I should have had the system serviced once in a while, but generally we don't do we. We wait for it to pack up.

So having waded through all 250 odd entries to the thread, carefully sifting out the dross, weighing up my requirements, looking at the benefits and disadvantages offered for all the systems around (and still struggling to come up with a firm decision), and then finally applying a little commonsense and practical application - success.

Thank you guys, you saved me at least £440 and possibly as much as £860. Now that's what I call a result from this site!

BR Ian

aardwolf

Apologies if this is not the right place
How can I estimate how much salt the watersoftner should be using
We have an old kinetico - came with the house works great but uses 2 blocks per fortnight. We are a family of 5 and use the washing machine a fair bit
Also are there any user servicable parts that I should look at.
(Although i am not keen on disturbing something that has been working away quietly for at least the last 5 years.)

PTE

Newbie to this site. Considering buying a water softener since we live in a hardwater area (North Hampshire) and some of the family have eczema. Some friends have just purchased a TwinTec and were delighted with it and it has prompted us to get on and do something about getting a water softener.

I have been in touch with the local Twin Tec, Harveys, and Kinetico suppliers to invite their respective reps to present on the capabilities and benefits of their products. Expecting them in the next week or so.

However I have just come across this website and I am now rethinking my options. As has been mentioned before there is scant reliable independent information on the web and this forum thread is the best discussion I have found on the subject. And I am pleased we have since I think I will have avoided making an expensive mistake by going down the twin tank route.

I only really considered the duplex, non-electric systems since I was under the impression that these were the latest technology (and most efficient) and since they were non-powered that they were more reliable and required the least amount of maintenance. But for our use (5bdrm house, 4 people, 2 x baths/showers, regularly used washing machine/dishwasher and no late night shower/bath usage) that a single unit/powered is actually a better and more cost effective choice.

It also appears that from reading the threads that TwinTec and Harvey's are one and the same (but I am interested to see the approach of the reps from each company).

We have an available power supply in a cupboard in the kitchen that would would also easily house a softener. Based on reading this thread I am now leaning towards the single system, powered.

Westi, I've just read your very helpful post and saw you were going to buy a Tapworks AD11 which looks like it would suit us as well.

Are there any other brands that folk would recommend in the single system/powered that I could compare this with? One of the suppliers I have approached also carries a Sofflow CM10, does anyone have any opinions on this manufacturer?

And would this system need a specialist to install it or would my plumber be able to do it for me?

Thanks all! Great site and very helpful thread.

Doc_N

Peshi - I'm curious. You'll know the answer to this. What are the normal margins that dealers work on? I'm guessing 50% mark up/33% gross profit rate on sale price. Am I somewhere near the mark, and does it vary dramatically from model to model?

Doc_N

I'm also curious to know what the going rate is for a Kinetico 2020c if anyone knows, or has bought one. The odd thing about these is that there don't seem to be any online prices, just suggestions that people ring for a price - which I always find deeply suspicious.

westi

Hi PTE,

You must have gone to the same supplier (for the Sofflow machine) as for my original machine, if I am not mistaken as I cannot see anyone other than they in this country supplying Sofflow. Neither can I find anything on Sofflow on the web - unless you're looking for a bidet.

My current machine is in fact a Sofflow T10 (electromechanical timer) which has worked, and is still working OK (now) after 10 years, with the only attention being given it, that of salt top-up.

The only reason I discounted that machine was based on price ( I have found the AD11 for £440 incl VAT and delivery compared to about £585 for the Sofflow) and the fact that there seemed to be no independent information available on the Sofflow.

Regarding installation - download the Owner Manual from the Tapworks web site. Has all the installation and set-up information you will need - and whole bunch more of useful information - good bedtime reading . Installation is not rocket science. Just needs three valves (supplied with the softener) inserted into the rising main for the softener and a spur off the rising main for a seperate unsoftened tap - usually a small fawcet on the side of your kitchen sink. Any registered plumber should be able to do this easily.

Hi Doc N,

The best price I've been able to find for the 2020C is £860 (by going direct to dealers). Now there's a challenge Peshi - can you beat that? I suspect the reason there are no Kinetico prices available on-line is that they do not want to compete on price. They want the opportunity to sell their product and all its 'benefits' which in their minds, justifies the high price.

BR
Ian

Doc_N

westi wrote: »

Hi Doc N,

The best price I've been able to find for the 2020C is £860 (by going direct to dealers). Now there's a challenge Peshi - can you beat that? I suspect the reason there are no Kinetico prices available on-line is that they do not want to compete on price. They want the opportunity to sell their product and all its 'benefits' which in their minds, justifies the high price.

BR
Ian

Thanks - I agree. Wonder what Peshi's best price is. Has anyone found one at a lower price?

aardwolf

Thanks Peshi - the number on the wheel is 5, unfortunately I can't find a model number on the machine just "Kinetico Block Salt Softner" and "use only Harvey's Block Salt". The valve unit has a made in USA with a patent number and possibly a date - 96?