water softner help in chosing and is this true

wallbash

Well I cant answer a fraction of your questions

But I can sympathise about your problems.
Will only tell you what I did in the last two weeks. I needed a new hot water tank and had one installed by the guy who services my boiler. Bit different to most as its a hot air system . When he was here we talked about re- installing the water softener, it had packed up last year. He took out the heat exchanger, I had the job of removing all the lime scale :eek::eek:
So it was out with the cheque book :mad:
I bought a Waterside MC450 ultra S
I fitted it today. Not difficult .
Did a water hardness test . needed 10/11 tablets which gave me a reading of 430
( dont ask what it means, just lets say I have hard water :rolleyes: )

Is it any good , don't know ........yet!

The ONLY question / remark on your list that I can answer/ comment on

(We definitely want one which doesn't need electric.)

The silly amount of electric it uses , the wiring is as thick as the one I use to recharge my torch :rotfl: So think again .

You ( and me ) live in hard water area's , your neighbours have the same problem ,
ask them ,get some local recommendations, read the postings on this thread, (with an open mind )

Cost of my 'new toy' just over £500, but I installed myself.

good luck

George_Bray

isofa wrote: »

We are considering a water softener, and find there is much conflicting advice, have a few points and questions!

1. What is "regeneration", and why do softeners need to do it?

"Regeneration" is the whole basis of nearly all "proper" water softeners. The softeners contain several litres of "crystals" called ion exchange resin which the water passes through. In the process, the calcium ions (the hardness element in your hard water) are removed and replaced with sodium, which won't gum up the shower, taps, heating element or anything else.

After so many litres of hard water have passed through, the resin is temporarily "exhausted" so it needs to be "recharged" or "regenerated" by passing brine (salt and water) through the resin.

Always check the amount of resin in any softener which you intend to buy. Many traders and manufacturers tend to hide this information. 10 or 12 litres of resin is the minimum I'd go for, even if you live alone. Also beware of their trick of giving vessel capacity rather than resin volume. These people use every trick in the book. So they might say the resin tank is 12 litres, even though it might contain only 8 litres of resin. The more resin the better, as it means you don't need to regenerate with salt/brine so often. A house/institution with 8 or 10 people, all having baths and showers, will need a softener with much more resin, like 20 or 25 litres or more.

Regeneration is not really "to create the softened water in advance".
It's a bit more akin to "cleaning" but is really chemical replenishment (ion exchange).

Auto softeners often go through the replenishment cycle at night because they assume it's less inconvenient for most people.

Like many folks, I have large cold and hot water tanks so this 'buffer' of water means I could have a shower at 3am right in the middle of a replenishment cycle, and it wouldn't matter one jot. My shower water would still be soft.

I prefer the concept of single cylinder models because if I have 12 litres of resin, I'd sooner have my water pass through all 12 litres all the time, rather than pass through just 6 litres of resin, with the other cyclinder (the other 6 litres) a 'waste of space' at any one time. I'm not bothered if my water supply is 'down' for a short time in the middle of the night.

2. Based on this "regeneration" and what are the average running costs, salt wise?

The amount of salt needed, and how often, is basic chemistry depending on how much water you use and how much resin you have, both measured in litres. Don't listen to any trader, supplier or service man like they invented this process. See elswhere on this thread (above) for indications of how much salt is typically used per year by genuine consumers. I use the cheapest table salt I can find, rather than pay a crazy premium for 'special' block salt, but this is because my softener is manual and I have full control over what's what, rather then needing to worry about the quirks of over-complicated proprietary softeners. They are unnecessarily complex because the suppliers see it as a way to create confusion, blind people with science, and make more money.

EXAMPLE: Say a certain house had a softener with a measly 6 litres of resin, and it needed replenishment every night. If the same house with the same water usage used a softener with 24 litres of resin, then it would only need to replenish every 4 nights in this simple example.

3. What are the advantages/disadvantages of single/twin models. (We definitely want one which doesn't need electric.)

Please see my comments above and elsewhere on this thread about single vs twin models.

I agree it's best to keep it simple and avoid anything electric. There's less to go wrong in my opinion.

4. Do water bills increase noticeably when you have a softener.

Yes, because of the large amounts of water needed during the regeneration and, moreover, the rinsing, to get rid of any salt/brine after it's done its job. Water softeners are bad news from this point of view. My manual system will use less water than most automatic units. I can keep tighter control over the amount of water used for regeneration and rinsing.

5. I'd consider having the cold water tap in the kitchen bypassed.

This is normal practice, so you're not forced to drink softened water. Most cafes and bars make tea, coffee, etc with softened water, though, and you never think twice about that, so it's not the end of the world, even if you do drink a bit.

6. We have a power shower, and it's used twice a day by 2 of us, so all the water comes from the hot water tank (rather than being heated on demand).

My system has a tank, too. The softener may break down the residual limescale slowly but it could take years/decades and it might 'dump' the scale in your shower, as well, which can't be good. My tank contained 14 Kg of calcium - an incredible amount. It's better to fit a new tank from the outset, I feel. Most traders and suppliers won't tell you that, of course, because tank replacement pushes the project cost up a lot, and it could put people off 'closing the sale' on a softener, which I guess is all these people are interested in.

6a. Will we still see a good softened water coming through the shower, despite the old tank, or will the old limescale deposits interfere with the chemical balance, lessening the softening to a noticeable degree?

Good question! As above. Yes, there will be a big improvement but I still recommend fitting a new copper tank.

7. Central heating - is this ok if we bypass the softener?

Yes, you could by-pass it, and not soften this water. The central heating circuit can contain chemical inhibitors instead.

I hope this helps.

isofa

George thank you so much for such a detailed and informative response, really appreciated, lots to think about!

Doc_N

isofa wrote: »

George thank you so much for such a detailed and informative response, really appreciated, lots to think about!

I'd echo that - thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed analysis.

Doc_N

peshi wrote: »

Again people on this site don't know there facts.

I have dry skin and need soft water all the time.
Single cylinder systems don't provide this.

For most people they do. Unless you want to wash in cold water in the middle of the night for some reason.

peshi wrote: »

Single cylinder system are so 1970's
They don't provide 100% soft water use more salt and water.
Again every time I'm at a customers house they dont pass the yes - no test.

If you have a little hard water pass through in to your hot water tank you will lose the benefit of soft water.
Such as reducing all your soaps, shampoos, cleaning products by half. If you have dry skin or eczema you will find your eczema may flare up and your skin will be dryer with single cylinder systems.

The Kinetico 2020c has improved my dry skin condition by allot more than 50%

What on earth is this Yes/No test? Sorry to have to say this, but you're talking nonsense about single cylinders - doubtlesss because you're selling the twin cylinder type. It's been said before, but:

1 A single cylinder model will regenerate at 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 in the morning, depending on how you programme it. Whilst it's regenerating, for maybe 90 minutes, any water used will not be softened. If you're using a direct supply the water will come out of the tap hard, and if there's a tank/hot water cylinder some hard water will enter the tank/cylinder. If you take a bath, that will make a difference to the water in the tank/cylinder. If you're just washing your hands, it won't have any measurable effect. But how many people are going to take a bath in the middle of the night?

2 A little bit of hard water going through to the tank/cylinder (if it happens at all, which it probably won't) will not cause you to lose the benefit of soft water. That's simply scaremongering, and it patently isn't true.

The Kinetico units that you're pushing may well be good machines - I don't know - but a single cylinder softener will do the job just as well, and quite possibly at a fraction of the price.

isofa

Surely any good softener, be it single or twin tank is going to create soft water and pass the "tablet test", otherwise they'd have difficulty selling them in the first place.

80 litres of water to regenerate, if this is the case, then I may well think again about getting one, that's a huge amount of water to waste several times a week.

Conflicting advice as always, this is a minefield!

wallbash

Conflicting advice as always, this is a minefield!

Have to agree with that.


Maybe you have to work out your major concerns /wishes?
Is the softener wanted
1) uses less soap , better suds , feels better on skin.
2) fed up with the visable effects of hard water.
ref

We had a new en-suite a few years ago, the shower cubical is now caked in limescale, despite weekly cleaning, the bottom of the taps is getter harder to clean, and within a day anything which is chrome has lost it's sheen, all the loos in our house have water marks which are impossible to remove. Cleaning is a real task and nothing we use shifts the limescale thoroughly, from commercial products to vinegar

3) worried about the damage you cant see
build up of lime scale , in pipes and tank and damage to appliances


Factor in the cost of softener , installation and then the running costs.

How much is the water regeneration actually going to cost
( I have no idea) :rolleyes:

Sorry I am biased , having just paid out my £500 , but I think
that you need a softener, and the water 'wastage' issue is just another cost you will have to live with.

George_Bray

peshi wrote: »

Single cylinder system are so 1970's

That sounds better to me than a system designed, produced and marketed in the past few years. Products were generally better made - more solid - in the 1970s.

Water softeners were introduced in the 1930s or earlier. The basic design, based on ion exchange resin, has not changed since then. Unscrupulous retailers will often try and persuade customers that the 'latest model' is best. I don't agree.

Conceptually, all you need to soften water at least as well as your Kinetico units, is a bucket with some resin, and a supply of salt. That's all it takes but there's not enough profit in that, so people like Kinetico come up with a 'package' which includes valves, integrated circuits and goodness knows what else to help complicate matters. A bucket and resin will last decades without failure so there's not much likelihood of any revenue from service calls. But if they use complicated valves, switches and - heaven help us - integrated circuits, there's a much greater chance of failure, and the need to pay a service 'engineer'.

Apologies if Kinetico units don't actually include ICs or electronic circuitry but I know many of the modern units do. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

George_Bray

peshi wrote: »

So what do you use George?
How much salt do you use on average?

I use large manual cylinders, just like I've seen (from old photos) were used in the 1930s, and are still used today for industrial water softeners.

The total volume of ion exchange resin in my softeners is over 100 litres. This compares with about 5 litres for the Kinetico, I understand. In the Kinetico, another 5 litres of resin sits idle for 99% of the time because Kinetico seem to think it's more important that people can have uninterrupted soft water in the middle of the night (or whenever they sleep) rather than make full use of the 10 litres of resin in the most popular domestic Kinetico model. I'd choose the latter. As it is, Kinetico must have found that twin cylinders have an appeal for most people. I think they're misguided, but it's only my opinion.

I use the amount of salt needed for the chemical reaction to replenish the resin. Nobody could use less or, if they do, it might not fully replenish the resin. In addition I let the replenishment cycle take 1 or 2 hours, and sometime longer. I figure this can't do any harm. Kinetico claim that their replenishment time if just a few minutes but I say this is a marketing gimmick. It might not be optimal to complete replenishment so quickly.

I use hard water for replenishment and rinsing. It works fine. What's the advantage in using soft water, please? The process is dead simple. I have to hand it to the Kinetico founders for designing a water powered auto-mechanism, rather than use electricity. I rate it as an idea if people don't want to replenish manually, like I do. It's just a pity that Kinetico charge a small fortune for what amounts to be a very tiny softener with a mere 5 litres of resin. That's the way I see it, anyway.

wallbash

rather than use electricity.

I think i'm about to be thrown off this forum
What is wrong about using electricity and a water softener .

Cant be danger, or we would ban washing machines /dishwashers etc
Are that expensive to run , the silly looking cable looks the same as my mobile phone charger.
Or is it something more to go wrong ..... but then I'm back to the washing machines /dishwashers