water softner help in chosing and is this true

French_Saver

Helo all,

very interesting thread as I am myself considering having a water softener. The problem I have is that the mains water supply arrive in the airing cupboard, right in the middle of the bungalow. A T piece then sends water to the kitchen and to the holding tank.

I have jad a couple of companies coming round to look at the site and give me a quote to fit a softener. The query that I have is that one guy said there was no way to avoid having a pipe coming down the kitchen wall from the loft to supply the kitchen with unsoftened water (I really don't want a pipe onthe wall!!!) whilst the other chap said that we would not need that pipe if we had a RO filter fo the drinking water tap? Is this true? Does anyone has any experience of such a set-up?

Cobnut_2

Thanks for the Link Andrew. Will look into it.
When I said about the 3way sink tap, I was on about the hot and cold being softened and the 3rd Filtered mains through e.g. a inline brita filter.

Brill idea about the 2nd outside tap for car washing!

How much pressure do you loose then with a softner as we have got good perssure and it would be a shame to loose much of it.

moonrakerz

andrew-b wrote: »

Moonrakerz can you justify the scale inhibitor being a waste of money please?

They do not work - do some reading and you will find plenty of info - except of course from those who are selling them ! That is why they refer to them as "conditioners" or "inhibitors", never as "softeners" ! If they used the term "softener" they could easily be prosecuted.

Even your justification sounds a bit half-hearted - borrowed from a website ? "Rather than eliminating limescale this is meant to convert the hard form of limescale " (my highlighting)

Below is an extract from an advert for one of these "machines":

"The problem increases as the water gets hotter. Water containing 145 ppm of calcite, flowing at 3.5 litres per minute, produces in one year 4.8 kilograms of scale at 60ºC. At 80ºC this rises dramatically to a massive 29.9 kilograms
(This may well be true, but what house has water flowing through it at 3.5 litres per minute for 24 hrs a day and 365 days a year - and at 80 degs C ! In the context of domestic water useage this is totally meaningless)

********* takes the process of induced ionisation to its ultimate stage. The principles of Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) are applied by passing ******* patented signal through a coil wrapped around the pipe to be treated. The signal consists of a frequency modulated (FM) wave form within the audio frequency (AF) bandwidth. This inaudible sonic frequency signal sets up a dynamic field around and through the coil, pipe and water, and modifies the calcium carbonate crystal nuclei.
The nuclei upon which the crystals start growing are minute in size and have charged surfaces in their natural condition within the water. When they pass through the field, these naturally charged nuclei encounter considerable forces as the field interacts with them. The field acts at the surfaces of the nuclei and modifies the nature of the electrical charges and this ionisation effect thus alters the growth rate and pattern of the crystals in general and on specific planes".
This is pure, unadulterated b***s**t !


If you want more info on MHD read "The Hunt For Red October". Perhaps the Russkies weren't developing an extremely quiet submarine, they were softening the North Atlantic for us !

Could I refer you to this? http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1031w.htm

Extract from Above link:

"Magnetic Conditioning

Permanent magnetic water conditioning devices have been marketed based on a variety of claims regarding their effect on water hardness and related scale formation. Tests conducted at Purdue University found "....no significant, beneficial variation in the physical or chemical water quality parameters measured."

PS: I don't want to repeat myself from an earlier post - but I will. Water softening/conditioning has taken over from double glazing as the stamping ground for many, many sharp salesmen selling either devices that do not work or devices that do work at grossly inflated prices.
Caveat emptor !

moonrakerz

andrew-b wrote: »

As i've got a degree in chemistry i think i might know if it's bull or not.

If you have a "degree" - why ask the question ?

andrew-b wrote: »

Tests in the laboratory aren't always conclusive and are often limited by funding and time constraints. The researcher has to be carrying out the right experiment and carrying out the right tests to get a conclusive result.. Experiments are just that...they are experimental. It can take many experiments before a theory can be proven. It's all very well testing these devices in the lab but real trials of these devices are the only real way of proving the validity of the theoretical claims ...and real trials are generally prohibitive because of the expense involved - or because people aren't willing to put a little bit of faith in the scientific theories.

I think what that says is, that lab test don't prove anything neither do field trials !

andrew-b wrote: »

So with your scepticism you haven't managed to dissuade me yet i am afraid..but nice try and thanks for your useful insights

And you ask why I am sceptical !

Scot_in_the_South

Thanks to all for your advice, however Iam in need of some advice.

Living in North Dorset and in need of a water softener. There ae 3 people living in the property, and the mains water supply comes into the downstairs cloakroom (with little room to swing a cat). A reputiable plumber (who has done lots of work for me) has stated the only feasible solution is to fit the water softener outside the property, T'ing into the main supply in the cloakroom.

The requirements for this just seem endless, not only plumbing outside the property, but also looking at getting an electic supply for water softener and a housing unit (which will have to be lagged). My plumber has recommended the Waterside MC450 (I was looking at the Waterside MC350).

I have noted that the Kinetico 2020c does not need an electic supply,but is
a tad on the expensive side.

Would appreciate any thoughts on recommendations for water softeners, with the preference being those that do not need an electical supply

Many Thanks

paulpa66

most twin tanks are electric free, but id try and keep it indoors somehow.

bernlyn

i ended up buying the crown twin softener. honestly its one of the best decisions that i have made. it is alot cheaper than the Kinetico 2020c. i have had it now for 9 months and i have absolutely no complaints.

when i ordered the softener i also ordered 6x25kg of tablet salt and only paid half price for them and they also gave me a free bag aswell. i see for the Kinetico if you wanted to use the salt tablet you have to buy the salt divider seperately at £30 extra on the sites that i have seen. otherwise you are stuck to using only the salt blocks. for the price of buying 2 x 4kg packs of block salt you can buy 25kg of salt tablets and you are getting more salt

just working out if you buy 25kg salt tab= £12.33 but you will have to buy
3x[2 x 4Kg Blocks]=21kg in total for cost of £6.42x3= £19.26 which is a saving of £6.93 you will have 4kg of extra salt tabs aswell a great savings over the future years to come

French_Saver

Hello all,

very interesting thread as I am myself considering having a water softener. The problem I have is that the mains water supply arrive in the airing cupboard, right in the middle of the bungalow. A T piece then sends water to the kitchen and to the holding tank.

I have had a couple of companies coming round to look at the site and give me a quote to fit a softener. The query that I have is that one guy said there was no way to avoid having a pipe coming down the kitchen wall from the loft to supply the kitchen with unsoftened water (I really don't want a pipe onthe wall!!!) whilst the other chap said that we would not need that pipe if we had a RO filter fo the drinking water tap? Is this true? Does anyone has any experience of such a set-up?

walmslei

One point to note is branded doesn't always mean better.

The big names in the softeneing world (which are mentioned through this thread) tend to use very bespoke valves - valves which only they can service, and valves which only they can obtain the spares for.

Now independent softener manufacturers if you like tend to use branded parts - just as a consumer you wouldn't really know about it. For example, one of the most common and reliable water softener valves in the world is made by a company called Fleck (google Fleck Valves) and not only are these pretty solid all round BUT you'll also find engineers within 20 miles of most places than can fix one, get the spares etc - being so popular the parts are easy to obtain. It is certainly the case that such a machine would have a substantially lower total cost of ownership over say 10 years than 'one of the bigger name' brands.

Also if, heaven forbid, the company who supplied your softener went bust, then in the case of a more widely accessible valve you certainly have more options.

(Mods - Not a link to us - just a general link for information)
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/en-us/Products/ResidentialControlValves/

Consider salt costs as well as usage - tablet salt is cheaper than block longer term usually (and most builders yards can supply tablet salt in bags if you ask).


Installation: A good plumber can install a softener subject to the location being OK within a couple of hours (or less) - it really is usually only three valves. Therefore when looking at a company 'offering installation' and a company offer supply only then consider whether you might not be better off ringing a local plumber who would probably install a softener for about £100 to £150 top end really.


Salt and Water
People make a big thing about this. Salt is £7 per 25kg bag - most families of four will use a bag every six to eight weeks, depending on your water usage etc. But say we are looking at about 8 bags a year - that is something like £56 per annum.

Water, at 40 to 50 litres per re-generation - and well at say 10 regenerations per month that is still only a tenners worth of water per annum (about 6 cubic metres). Therefore again in context of the 'overall cost' saving 5 litres of water per regeneration isn't ever going to pay for itself.


Electric versus Non-Electric
Again a non-argument in terms of cost savings. Even an electrically powered softener uses something like £3 of electric per annum - not worth paying several hundred pounds for a non-electric when you cannot recoup that cost.


My own advice is that you can buy a very good softener which will perform equally as well as any other brand for the £350 to £450 mark in the UK.


Another solution if you are looking to stop the problems of limescale without investing heavily is a dosing system - plenty of food grade scale inhibitor products out there which will dose the incoming supply protecting combi boilers, washing machines etc. They don't soften water (the scale is still there) but it will stop it from precipitating and therefore the end result is pretty much the same.

walmslei

Just as an aside (I caught this after I posted) you should always leave a tap unsoftened - it's British Water Code of Practice

http://www.britishwater.co.uk/Default.aspx

Basically the sodium increase if you drank softened tap water is supposed to be only like eating a couple of extra slices of bread per day (so I've read) BUT people with kidney problems, the eldery, small infants on baby forumla etc may all be at risk from that tiny addition.

Good fact sheets if anyone needs info
http://www.britishwater.co.uk/water_treatment/fact_sheets.aspx