water softner help in chosing and is this true

paulpa66

moonrakerz wrote: »

£575 ! you are paying £250 more for something that is totally unnecessary !

I thought this was a money saving site !

tHEN WHY NOT HELP AND ANSWER MY QUESTION???
What is a good cheaper alternative then? Ideally non electric

George_Bray

abb16ott wrote: »

Well i would go for it Paul, little or no maintenance with these units, I we have been very happy with it, it's neat, it's small and does a great job, I know people go on about it's not worth the extra cost for a twin, but it's like everything in life, u get what u pay for.
good luck

The point about having no tanks and preferring a non-electric softener is valid in terms of adding some merit to a twin cylinder softener.

But your point about being small and neat just about sums it up, I'm afraid! The simple law of physics means you need a certain volume of resin (the active essential ingredient) to do any softening. 20 litres of resin will soften exactly twice as much hard water as 10 litres of resin before needing to be replenished with salt. If a softener is small and expensive, then it's highly likely to be over-priced, in that you're not getting much resin. The only other costly component is the control head.

As mentioned before, I've cobbled together my own water softener and it has tens of litres of resin with associated massive capacity before it needs salt replenishment. I do the replenishment manually at a time to suit me, i.e not in the middle of running a bath. The problem with the main commercial softeners is that most are way-overpriced. It's a racket. You certainly don't get what you're paying for. Lower priced models have been suggested as offering better value, or build you own like I did!

paulpa66

George_Bray wrote: »

The point about having no tanks and preferring a non-electric softener is valid in terms of adding some merit to a twin cylinder softener.

But your point about being small and neat just about sums it up, I'm afraid! The simple law of physics means you need a certain volume of resin (the active essential ingredient) to do any softening. 20 litres of resin will soften exactly twice as much hard water as 10 litres of resin before needing to be replenished with salt. If a softener is small and expensive, then it's highly likely to be over-priced, in that you're not getting much resin. The only other costly component is the control head.

As mentioned before, I've cobbled together my own water softener and it has tens of litres of resin with associated massive capacity before it needs salt replenishment. I do the replenishment manually at a time to suit me, i.e not in the middle of running a bath. The problem with the main commercial softeners is that most are way-overpriced. It's a racket. You certainly don't get what you're paying for. Lower priced models have been suggested as offering better value, or build you own like I did!

So, what Softener has a high resin count, fits under a sink and wont regenerate when i need water?
Tapworks AD11 looks a good buy, not sure of resin etc

moonrakerz

paulpa66 wrote: »

tHEN WHY NOT HELP AND ANSWER MY QUESTION???
What is a good cheaper alternative then? Ideally non electric

1. Please don't shout !
2. Your question has been answered, several times over, earlier in this thread; but I will explain my thoughts on water softeners (having had one for about 30 years )

The cheapest and simplest types are those with an electro-mechanical timer/valve and a single resin tank. A possible disadvantage with these is that they do require an electrical supply. You set these to "regenerate" themselves in the middle of the night x times a week, depending on your water usage.

The metering type measures the amount of water you use then regenerate after a set amount has been used. A possible disadvantage is that they may regenerate during the "working" day and put a little hard water into your softened water system. The effects of this will not be noticeable !

Finally there are the twin tank types whose main selling points are that they switch to another softening tank when they need to regenerate. IMHO these machines are a "con trick" and a waste of money. They may prevent a small amount of hard water going into your system, but as already stated this means nothing. Because they have two tanks they will need to regenerate more often than a single tank. Many of them require block salt which is very expensive. They cost £250 + more than the other two types. (This will more than pay for a new power point for the first type)

I saw one web site which claimed that their softeners were so wonderful that you would be proud to have it on the side in your kitchen !!!! Mine lives in the cupboard under the kitchen sink ! If I wanted a work of art I would go to my local art dealer - not buy a water softener.

This is the model I have:
http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?forceStaticLeftNav=true&action=detail&fh_view=detail&fh_location=//catalog01/en_GB&fh_secondid=9271767

I got this for several reasons:
1. It fits in the cupboard under the sink.
2. It has sufficient capacity for my household.
3. It uses granular or tablet salt. A 25kg bag lasts me two months.

I don't boast to my neighbours about it - it just does it's job. I save a huge amount on soap, detergent, cleansers and I don't have to put salt in the dishwasher.

By trawling the net I can find plenty of water softeners which do no more than mine at prices from £700 up to £1000. Mine is £345.

Why waste your money ?

abb16ott

I don't find mine expensive, I put two bricks in a month a they work ouyt at £3.80 for the pair, the tablets I have also being using cost £5.50 a bag if buying 10 bags and that sack last at leat two months.

I bought mine with installation from : -

http://www.ezsoftener.com/index.asp?pid=H&sc=google

moonrakerz

Another passing thought:

The twin cylinder ones claim to do a regeneration cycle in 11 minutes.

1. How is this done (properly) with the system having to backflush, brine, rinse and refill brine tank in 11 minutes ?
2. If it's that quick why the hell do you need two tanks anyway ?

abb16ott

moonrakerz wrote: »

Another passing thought:

The twin cylinder ones claim to do a regeneration cycle in 11 minutes.

1. How is this done (properly) with the system having to backflush, brine, rinse and refill brine tank in 11 minutes ?
2. If it's that quick why the hell do you need two tanks anyway ?

If u were going flying, how many engines would u like the plane to have 1 or 2.

At the end of the day it's personal choice,read reviews and make ur mind up. some people buy ford some people buy BMW's why because they have choice and they hope that for the extra money they will get something better and more religable.

moonrakerz

abb16ott wrote: »

If u were going flying, how many engines would u like the plane to have 1 or 2.

Is that really the carefully calculated rationale of your having a twin tank water softener ?

A BMW will probably get you somewhere in a little more comfort than a Ford.

A £1000 twintank softener will do no more to the water than a £350 one from B & Q - except it will cost you more.

George_Bray

moonrakerz wrote: »

Another passing thought:
The twin cylinder ones claim to do a regeneration cycle in 11 minutes.
1. How is this done (properly) with the system having to backflush, brine, rinse and refill brine tank in 11 minutes ?
2. If it's that quick why the hell do you need two tanks anyway ?

Once more, there seems to be a conflict between the simple laws of chemistry and physics (ion exchange) and the spurious claims of the marketing people behind these over-priced, rip-off water softeners. Moonrakerz - the machine you have may seem a bargain compared to the models costing £100s more (for little if any advantage) but even your machine is made by Permutit, and they are not exactly known for charity. Your machine is over-priced and models which are even more expensive are even more of a con.

All these machines, the types we are discussing anyway, work on the basis of ion exchange via a resin. The physics and chemistry mean that no water softener manufacturer can come up with a method of replenishing the resin any faster than anyone else. If it's done in 11 minutes, the replenishment will not be very good. It's just money down the drain in terms of salt not used to best advantage, and a lot of waste water. They all need the same amount of salt, too (per litre of resin), so any manufacturer who claims to use less salt per year (for the same size softener) is just fooling you, especially if it's linked to a fast processing time.

moonrakerz

George_Bray wrote: »

Moonrakerz - the machine you have may seem a bargain compared to the models costing £100s more (for little if any advantage) but even your machine is made by Permutit, and they are not exactly known for charity. Your machine is over-priced and models which are even more expensive are even more of a con.

I would prefer to buy something with a name to it - and from a reputable/traceable supplier. I wanted one that would fit in my kitchen cupboard, if it didn't fit all I had to do was take it back to B & Q. I'm not sure that I would want to buy from a company that seemed to operating like a "charity", they'll soon go bust - they are in business to make a profit.
I daresay you could probably show me a softener equivalent to mine available over the internet from a nice little man in Mongolia for half the price - but I'll stick with my Permutuit from B & Q - thanks anyway !

I totally agree with your comments about regeneration which is why I raised the point. I've never actually timed my machine (don't usually have my head under the kitchen sink at 2 in the morning !), but it must take a good hour - which is why the 11 minute claim jarred with me.
I did raise your very valid point (in an earlier thread) about claims by some softener manufacturers that you would use less than a bag of salt a year in their machine - my comment was - if that was the case the water is already so soft that you don't need a softener in the first place !