water softner help in chosing and is this true

katch_2

Re. isolating the drinking water: my main shower comes from the mains, so I'd like that water to be softened, but don't want to faff about with filters under the sink or re-routing. Will an ordinary jug filter do the job?

Cobnut_2

I have just installed my softener, I went for the Crown in the end and installed myself. (fairly good at DIY) The facts it looks after its self sold it for me as I could be away for weeks on end. Paid £620 for it delivered. Easy to fit, only headache was figuring out the plumbing into a 600 unit with a 3 way tap with water filter, dish washer and washing machine also to go through there! :eek:

I will keep updated as to how it performs!

Cobnut_2

Shame you cant insert a pic from pc, I found it impossible to find a pic of how to plumb it all in. Maybe I'm just a one off who wants a filter for the drinking mains.

Lycanthrope

Hi all

I'm English but living in Belgium - the water across the whole country is very hard indeed and there's a whole industry built up around softeners.

But, like many here have found, very little independant information to be had. In fact this thread appears to be the best resource on the web, crazy but true.

We had an Aquacare softener in our previous house, this was a basic timed regenration unit but it did the job, although I suspect it used too much salt. Now we have a new house as of two years and it's time to install one.

I was quoted €3000 to have a BWT installation - this is a German brand that seems to be the top end of the market. It seemed a steep price to me at the time and after reading this through I was right.

We've now had a leaflet from the same company http://www.aquacare.be put through the letterbox for a TwinTec, I'll ask for a quote anyway just to see what they come up with.

I was wondering if anyone knew anything about the BWT AQA Total Energy? Seems to be some kind of filtering systems.

Then there's these devices that "ionize" the water or other such weird claims - I want them to be true and the things to work but I just can't come to believe it...

draconian_2

I'm in here again because we need a water softner - currently have the afore mentioned Kinetico 2020c - its excellent - interesting to know it requires no servicing because I have been told by the supplying compny to get it serviced!

I was wondering what the best price for supply only (my best mate plumbed the one we have now and will do the next one) is so that my new house can be softened?

We paid £1000 including a years worth of block salt, but I have now seen them for £850 - is this the cheapest?

Thanks

D

mad990diver

Having had a Crown Mini-Max softener for years I've just moved and need another unit.

The Crown was second hand and I installed it myself. It worked perfectly (even with dishwasher valves) for 7 years plus its previous use and is still going strong. I had one minor failure outside of warranty when a plastic elbow started leaking. Harvey (the UK manufactuer of Crown, Twintec and others)gave me a replacement free of charge:T. With this great service I know my next unit will be made by Harveys.

I like the twin cylinder mechanical designs so my choice is another Crown or a Twintec S2 (Twintec also sell an S1 but this is exactly the same as the Crown Mini-Max). But what's the difference between the S1 and the S2? There's no info on the web so I called Harvey's and got the low down from one of their designers.

Harvey Softeners Limited
www dot harveysofteners dot com
Tel: (01483) 753400

The Twintec S2 difference...
- an updated more sleek case design with Transparent plastic salt cover
- better quality resin (5-10% more salt efficient)
- Adjustable brine valve (can be tuned to the water supply to make it even more salt efficient)
- only available from network approved dealers (although some will supply for self fit)

Local dealer price
S1 - £730 ex.VAT £840 inc.VAT
S2 - £895 ex.VAT £1029 inc.VAT

Web price
Crown - £625 inc.VAT delivered with a hose kit

Interestingly the fitting price from my local dealer was very good indeed at only £125 ex.VAT (and mine's quite a complex job)

On a bit of a budget at the moment so looks like I'll be doing some plumbing and buying the Crown unit (bear in mind you must specify the model type to match the gear setting to your water hardness).

This time I'll be using 15mm full flow valves for isolation and bypass and a non-return valve in the supply. Hard water filter tap is a given too.:cool:

Hope this helps anyone who's thinking along the same lines.

walmslei

Sorry, I'm afraid I'll have to take exception with Peshi's comments

Firstly not all water softener companies other than the one he mentions are box shifters - just because you do not send salesmen into peoples homes and such to shift systems doesn't mean you cannot offer good products and/or customer service. The brand he also mentions is probably one of the higher priced premium brands, and given the lack of posts the advice sounds more like marketing than general help.

Firstly the mention of Duplex softeners being more efficient is just typical of the sort of advice you often hear, when it's completely unnecessary for a domestic installation - 2am regenerations on a well setup simplex softener are absolutely as good, and whilst you have a very very fractional trade off in efficiency, for the reasons detailed below (salt and water) it really isn't worth worrying about.

To claim a plumber is not capable of installing a softener is frankly ridiculous and I'm sure most plumbers on here would object to being told that fitting three compression fit valves and rigging it up to a gravity fed drain of some design is beyond them. Most configuration can be done by a softener company prior to it leaving the site (most have guides to water hardness by town or area), and once installed it's possible to test the water and fine tune onsite if necessary - many valves can be reprogrammed relatively simply - again, you tend to find the more expensive softeners require more work for such things as a general rule.

Right.. most softeners that don't carry such high price tags will probably be equipped with Fleck valves. Industry -relies- on Fleck, they are solid, reliable and easy to service. There is a lot I could go into but if you google up on Fleck Water Softener valves, you'll basically get most of the information you need - they are good, solid workhorses and there are a lot lot more of these in service than even the most popular of the premium brands I'd wager.

Fleck valves don't need servicing, they don't need maintenance and if something goes wrong, if the supplier or company who fitted it has gone bust there are a lot of engineers (there will always been one half-local) who will be able to put it right, usually for very sensible money.

The reality of the situation is most £400 softeners will run for as long as a £1200 softener - we've Fleck based softeners that having been running over 15 years that are going absolutely fine.

I've said it on previous posts, but watch out for marketing ploys by some companies - the commone ones, in general are outlined below!

The first being 'uses less salt'. Firstly, salt isn't a huge running cost - my own softener uses a bag (25kg) every six weeks, but the reality of it is there is only -so- much efficiency you can actually get out of salt - the chemistry of how these things work is they -need- sodium to exchange out the calcium, so a softener using a ridiculously low amount of salt either isn't fully softening, or your water isn't very hard. So, lets say a softener claims a 20% salt reduction (I don't believe most salt claims, but lets say), then based on myself using 9 bags a year at a total cost of £72 - then the wonder softener will save me £14.40 - and that's assuming it does what it says. Also, salt usage is typically defined by 'amount of salt' so if the softener uses more expensive block salt over regular builders merchant tablet salt, then again...pointless to economise when the salt is priced higher than usual!

Next 'uses less water'. Water, again lets work on the best softener saving you say 10 litres per regeneration and say it regenerates every two days - that means you are talking about saving 1.8 cubic metres of water per annum - our local price is about £1.50 per cubic metre, so again - we are talking between 2 and 3 pounds per annum in savings.

So, you can spend an extra £400, £600 even £800 or more on a softener, but you are not necessarily buying anything more reliable, nor are you necessarily buying better service nor are you likely to recoup any savings claims which are often touted.

In other words, do some research - by all means look into the big brands, but google up on Fleck (maybe even AutoTrol and Clack, also sometimes seen) and read about how softeners actually work and you'll find it's not that complicated a technology, and that the tried and tested solutions are actually preffered by the vast majority of people.

walmslei

Look carefully if you have a salesman try and sell you anything like this - anything to do with maintenance and such soon starts to add to the costs. One point I meant to mention is the plumbing valves requried ought to be available at a plumb centre if you needed them, which most plumbers go to so again.. nothing that specialist as per previous claims.

H20

A few things need clearing up between peshi and walmslei's posts.

Firstly, not all companies are box shifters, but most could do a hell of a lot better. No UK company have pursued the global industry qualifications available to them offered by the WQA - the Water Quality Association. Look up WQA.org and you will find a few UK WQA members, but no Certified Water Specialists, so dealers are dragging their heels here a bit. Becoming "Certified" means studying and taking exams, and giving customers a sense that you know a little of what you are talking about, and follow industry codes & ethics and take time to get indepth facts and studies from the largest global water quality improvement organisation.

Walmslei is correct with regard to switching duplex softeners, they are absolutely NOT required. Simplex systems with early morning settings are perfectly fine. Duplex are typically designed for some commercial uses but even many commercial applications are fine with simplex.

Duplex are a waste of the second cylinder for domestic use, and HALF the available capacity at any given time if only the manufacturing costs were focussed on a larger single tank and more resin. Duplex therefore mean higher wear and tear on resin and more frequent washes, also meaning higher water use because of shorter regen intervals.

Some plumbers may just be able to get their heads around fitting water softeners, but Peshi is right here. Get a water softener specialist to install, ideally supply and install, because of warranty implications and the duplicity of the plumber blaming the unit, and the manufacturer blaming the plumber. Most plumbers will miss subtle things needed to get the installation 100% correct, and will have very little specialist diagnostic skills for the tougher problems if they have to be called back out to problem solve on things like turbine creep, chemistry issues like langelier saturation index, and overall product knowledge.

As for Fleck valves, its gotta be said, they are ancient piles of rubbish. Totally outdated, full of metal able to rust and fall apart, riddled with clockwork cogs and microswitches, require servicing before long. 1950's and 60's designed clap trap. Forget Fleck, they are history.

Kinetico are a waste of time too in my opinion. Where the hell is the electric? They have no microprocessor diagnostics built in which are now part of 21st century valves now incorporating proportional brining, service history, historic record keeping of installation date and number of days in service, number of backwashes, number of litres used, peak flow rate diagnostics, leak detection diagnostics, telemetry ports, programmable cycle selection, advance incidental regen programming, selectable holiday cylinder regen refresh settings, chlorine generator funcionality, etc etc etc.

Also none-electric will fail to take advantage of further major improvements in brining technology such as the new state of the art impulse brining systems, plus other microprocessor inspired revolutions.

Kinetico are stone age when it comes to smart water softeners.

Systems with all of the advanced electronic features, with four to eight times the available running capacity of a Kinetico 2020c, using less water and as low as two 25kg bags of salt on hard water per year for a family with just £2 of electricity and a working life of well over 30 years with minimal 10 to 15 year servicing - ARE available, and at about HALF the price.


So altogether, it is worth thinking smart and not soaking up all the sales spiel out there.

Think £500 or so for the best value electronic, simplex, ultra long life, reliable, high efficiency systems. Add a hundred or so for installation and full 10 year onsite parts and labour, written same day callout, 7 day back up cover. Forget plumbers and box shifters, forget Kinetico, and get an expert that know what they are talking about.

moonrakerz

peshi wrote: »

1. If some one bought a cheapy from us at £400 it will produce soft water but not 24 hours a day and it will use more salt and more water. It will also need servicing regular and exchanging every 5 - 10 years.

2. If some one bought a Kinetico 2020c (the best one you can buy) it will produce soft water 24 hours a day, wont need servicing and is very efficient on salt and water consumption.

Complete and utter rubbish !


A "cheapy" will produce just as much soft water and as for as long as a gold plated, all singing, all dancing model at two or three or even more times the price.
As I have said before in this thread - you can buy an awful lot of salt for that extra £500 + !!

peshi wrote: »

If you cost the product say over 10 years the cheapy would cost you twice as much the the Kinetico.

If the previous comment was "Complete and utter rubbish" - my comment on this statement is - "gold plated, all singing, all dancing rubbish" !!!

Water softeners and "green" products have replaced double glazing as the happy hunting ground for less than honest salesmen !!

BE WARNED !

ADDED NOTE:

I have just done a bit of quick maths just to show how ludicrous the claimed running costs are.

My cheapy water softener (Permutit from B & Q !) was £500 less than the ebay prices for the much vaunted Kinetico 2020c mentioned above.

It uses about 12.5 kg of tablet/granular salt a month. Using prices from an on-line salt dealer this costs me £42 a year.
A Kinetico will use very little less salt than this once mine has been set up properly (takes a couple of weeks of monitoring).
The same quantity of salt from the same on-line dealer in block form for the Kinetico costs £72.45.
UNLESS you buy the Kinetico branded salt when it will cost you £100.27 !!!!!!

To my simple mind this means that my cheapy costs half as much to run as the Kinetico - yet we have a claim that the cheapy will cost you twice as much as the Kinetico !
Don't forget that both machines use the same process to soften the water, so both will use similar quantities of salt.

Let's cost it over 10 years:

Kinetico. £900 + 10 years salt at £100 per year = £1900
Cheapy. £400 + 10 years salt at £42 per year = £820

"cheapy would cost you twice as much the the Kinetico" - not true. In fact, indisputable LIES !
Any maintenance costs will be more expensive on the Kinetico as it duplicates a lot of the cheapy's internal workings and is generally more complex.
I have had a (Cheapy) softener for nearly 35 years, the first one lasted about 15 years. Apart from cleaning out the salt tank every few years, maintenance was ZERO.