naughty children

outofmoney

A couple of days ago a friend was complaining because her 2 year old son, whom has been sleeping in their bed until now, will not stay in his bed all night. However, no attempt has ever been made to return him when he gets out. The way she spoke she almost put the son at blame, and she expected him to know he must now do the opposite of what he has for 2 years.

This to me is a classic example of how some parents, whilst not being bad parents, fail to realise that children don't automatically do the right thing. They need to be taught and corrected. Often children with learning difficulties all the more so.

As said above, the behaviour of the children is often not because of their ADHD but because the parents have just left them to find their own way in life. These children then tend to discover that it is the extreme behaviour that gets them the attention.

Richie-from-the-Boro

(1)
Discuss the following :

Please don't be offended by the analogy, one of my in-laws had 4 dog training schools spread between two counties. An an immensely successful and thriving business for decades all based on the premise as David was fond of putting it that :

"""There is no such thing as a badly behaved dog, just very stupid and badly behaved owners who are so stupid they are prepared to pay me good money to teach them .. .. not the dog .. .. good behaviour"""

For myself I have long believed this to be a truism, watch any dog training class for only five minutes and you will quickly realise not one single animal is being taught anything whatsoever .. .. it's the human that is taught. Any perceived benefit to the animal comes about as a result of the changed behaviour of the adult, the new found capacity to set standards, boundaries and behaviour leads to the well behaved dog

The owner having shelled out lots of wonka and time thinks the classes in reflective listening, positive discipline and handling behavioural problems trained the dog and is happy with the outcome, good for him or her .. .. little does the owner know s/he was at fault, an animal is only as good as the teacher.

All kids with or without ASD / ADHD / AHD have good and bad days but it seems to be very convenient for parents of ASD / ADHD / AHD who have a difficult time bringing up their child to put a bad day down to an illness and not simply to 'bad behaviour'

unhappyphone

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

All kids with or without ASD / ADHD / AHD have good and bad days but it seems to be very convenient for parents of ASD / ADHD / AHD who have a difficult time bringing up their child to put a bad day down to an illness and not simply to 'bad behaviour'

Great job missing the point of diagnoses that have symptomatic behaviours.

If my ADHD partner is stressed in some way, he will "behave badly" and forgot to tidy his clothes off the floor or lose concentration.

If something stressful happens to me, my AS means I might shut down and not speak to any body.

The point is, some things are beyond our control because we are neurologically different. Getting upset about fluorescent lights might seem "stupid" to someone on here, but to someone with autism it could be incredibly stressful and they might "act out" if it's the straw breaking the camel's back that day.

There seems to be a profound lack of understanding on here, probably because kids and adults with these conditions tend to lack the ability to articulate their side of the story and get walked all over by people who "know best".

You can have bad or naughty people with ASD and ADHD, but to claim that every "bad day" is an excuse for "naughty behaviour" and can never be disability related is profoundly offensive.

To use the supermarket analogy again, a "normal" kid having a tantrum in an aisle would be punished with a smack or the removal of a privilege. However, an autistic kid might start whining or having a tantrum purely because someone has brushed past them and it's combined with the fluorescent lights and the voices on the tannoy and the crashing trolleys and the itchy label on their new t-shirt. At this point, an idiot parent will apply the same punishment as parent-of-normal-kid has done, because the symptoms are the same but you've GOT to start realising that the reasons are different, 95% of the time. What parent-of-ASD-kid needs to do is remove them from the environment and come up with strategies for next time; what they usually do is smack/punish because they're "normal" themselves and can't empathise with why it happened.

Thus, the child's behaviour will never change because the child is being disciplined but has no idea why, because they weren't consciously trying to cause a fuss or get a response. Thus, the discipline steps up a level and the child learns to fear their parent, who seemingly lashes out at them (verbally or physically) for no reason at all. And believe me, this is exactly what happens, from first-hand experience and from seeing documentaries with clueless parents in them.

So, those advocating discipline are fools, because these children need symptom management instead. It's not the same as coddling, because forcing someone to learn strategies to face situations they find difficult is painful anyway.

My partner and I both grew up with mothers who beat us if we ever "misbehaved", and it didn't make a lick of difference to our behaviours. Spent our whole childhoods being punished and not knowing why, and only found comfort once we became adults and had the freedom to learn to manage our symptoms ourselves. Therefore, you can see why the old stereotype of "they just need stronger parenting" rings as !!!!!!!!.

Brassedoff

unhappyphone wrote: »

Great job missing the point of diagnoses that have symptomatic behaviours.

If my ADHD partner is stressed in some way, he will "behave badly" and forgot to tidy his clothes off the floor or lose concentration.

If something stressful happens to me, my AS means I might shut down and not speak to any body.

The point is, some things are beyond our control because we are neurologically different. Getting upset about fluorescent lights might seem "stupid" to someone on here, but to someone with autism it could be incredibly stressful and they might "act out" if it's the straw breaking the camel's back that day.

There seems to be a profound lack of understanding on here, probably because kids and adults with these conditions tend to lack the ability to articulate their side of the story and get walked all over by people who "know best".

You can have bad or naughty people with ASD and ADHD, but to claim that every "bad day" is an excuse for "naughty behaviour" and can never be disability related is profoundly offensive.

To use the supermarket analogy again, a "normal" kid having a tantrum in an aisle would be punished with a smack or the removal of a privilege. However, an autistic kid might start whining or having a tantrum purely because someone has brushed past them and it's combined with the fluorescent lights and the voices on the tannoy and the crashing trolleys and the itchy label on their new t-shirt. At this point, an idiot parent will apply the same punishment as parent-of-normal-kid has done, because the symptoms are the same but you've GOT to start realising that the reasons are different, 95% of the time. What parent-of-ASD-kid needs to do is remove them from the environment and come up with strategies for next time; what they usually do is smack/punish because they're "normal" themselves and can't empathise with why it happened.

Thus, the child's behaviour will never change because the child is being disciplined but has no idea why, because they weren't consciously trying to cause a fuss or get a response. Thus, the discipline steps up a level and the child learns to fear their parent, who seemingly lashes out at them (verbally or physically) for no reason at all. And believe me, this is exactly what happens, from first-hand experience and from seeing documentaries with clueless parents in them.

So, those advocating discipline are fools, because these children need symptom management instead. It's not the same as coddling, because forcing someone to learn strategies to face situations they find difficult is painful anyway.

My partner and I both grew up with mothers who beat us if we ever "misbehaved", and it didn't make a lick of difference to our behaviours. Spent our whole childhoods being punished and not knowing why, and only found comfort once we became adults and had the freedom to learn to manage our symptoms ourselves. Therefore, you can see why the old stereotype of "they just need stronger parenting" rings as !!!!!!!!.

Being a newbie, I suppose Richie might let your words slide. These conditions (note I said conditions, not Disability) in kids is one thing, in an adult I suppose you would say I am being offensive if I said "deal with it" you are an adult living in an adult world. Otherwise the big cruel world will eat you up. Being beaten as a child is nothing exclusive to you and your partner, it happened to many, the longer you go back in time, the more prevalent it was.

Do you actually believe that many of us don’t have bad days, whether at work or home for those who cannot work and not be bothered to do that little job or tidy those things up. Nature or nurture is a big debate and in life there are boundary’s or lines the society say you cannot cross, making sure all children know them is a good move. Simply washing your hands and saying that the person (child) suffers from a condition and can get away with it is wrong and later in life (adult) society enforces consequences.

I think Richie’s, Craftier and Single Sue, who has plenty of experience of living with the condition have hit the nail on the head. I accept your point of view and that of others, but rolling out “offensive” is just one of this lobbies stratagems to stifle debate.

SingleSue

One of the worse things you can do with an autistic child is to remove them from what is causing them stress.....trying to do it later and building in strategies could be too late. You need to start working on the stresses straight away whilst in the situation and building in extra strategies for the next time so it does not happen or if it does, it happens in a smaller way.

I never once left the supermarket with the boys, I did start to avoid going with them at one point until I realised that they would not learn at all doing it that way and so then persevered with them and the coping mechanisms until they could cope and then moved it on a stage to where THEY could do shopping themselves and then onto THEM actually buying themselves something.

Small steps.....very small steps.

*I never smack or shout, everything is done in a calm manner, even when they have the screaming ab dabs in the middle of a busy supermarket.

Prinzessilein

SingleSue wrote: »

One of the worse things you can do with an autistic child is to remove them from what is causing them stress.....trying to do it later and building in strategies could be too late. You need to start working on the stresses straight away whilst in the situation and building in extra strategies for the next time so it does not happen or if it does, it happens in a smaller way.

On the whole I agree....but with reservations.

Sometimes the best solution IS to remove the autistic child. As in all things it depends on the individual child and the circumstances.

There are times when if I am stressed and have sensory overload then I can start to swear. It is not pleasant. When I was younger Mum had two choices - she could either remove me from the source of sensory overload...or she could deal with people staring at a young girl who had a really foul mouth on her and who was screaming out some really offensive stuff.

Sometimes a parent/carer has to consider other people as well as the autistic child. Whilst my needs have always come first with mum, I have always been taught that as I have to live in this strange and confusing world, I have had to learn to conform.

In the situation described in an earlier post - there were two children with possible ADHD running wild in a hospital. For the moment let's accept that they DID have ADHD....this is no excuse for disrupting the care and treatment of patients. I don't necessarily blame the children...but in that particular case the parent should have removed the children and not allow them back into that situation until they were able to behave acceptably. (The children were there as visitors not patients).

You cannot cushion an autistic child from this world. They need to learn coping strategies. But occasionally for the good of the child and for other people they need to be removed - maybe temporarily - from a situation.

craftier

I agree that removing a child/adult depends on the situation. I was content to stand next to a 5 yr old thrashing round on the supermarket floor. But, earlier today, I had a 22yr old, six foot tall, jumping up and down, growling and thrashing his arms around. In this situation nearby shoppers could get hurt as his arms are long. I managed to calm things slightly with the bribe of a doughnut, but we paid & got out as soon as possible. He is usually fine, but it was busy by the Christmas bargains that I wanted to look at.

I know what he feels as I sometimes feel overloaded about half way round the supermarket, if I'm having one of my more autistic days, and have to leave hoping that we could do without the frozen chips as they are at the far end of the shop! My autism causes me more problems if I am stressed about other things, most of the time now I manage to cope with the world. (I'm 51)

Each situation should be judged individually, depending on the child/adult concerned, but always avoiding a situation with young children, will not make for an easier life when they get older.

shegirl

Brassedoff wrote: »

Being a newbie, I suppose Richie might let your words slide. These conditions (note I said conditions, not Disability) in kids is one thing, in an adult I suppose you would say I am being offensive if I said "deal with it" you are an adult living in an adult world. Otherwise the big cruel world will eat you up. Being beaten as a child is nothing exclusive to you and your partner, it happened to many, the longer you go back in time, the more prevalent it was.

Do you actually believe that many of us don’t have bad days, whether at work or home for those who cannot work and not be bothered to do that little job or tidy those things up. Nature or nurture is a big debate and in life there are boundary’s or lines the society say you cannot cross, making sure all children know them is a good move. Simply washing your hands and saying that the person (child) suffers from a condition and can get away with it is wrong and later in life (adult) society enforces consequences.

I think Richie’s, Craftier and Single Sue, who has plenty of experience of living with the condition have hit the nail on the head. I accept your point of view and that of others, but rolling out “offensive” is just one of this lobbies stratagems to stifle debate.

It's not about getting away with it,it's about using different ways to cope with it that are appropriate to their understanding and 'condition' (as you like to call it).It does not mean they 'get away with it',there are different ways with dealing with things.

shegirl

SingleSue wrote: »

One of the worse things you can do with an autistic child is to remove them from what is causing them stress.....trying to do it later and building in strategies could be too late. You need to start working on the stresses straight away whilst in the situation and building in extra strategies for the next time so it does not happen or if it does, it happens in a smaller way.

I never once left the supermarket with the boys, I did start to avoid going with them at one point until I realised that they would not learn at all doing it that way and so then persevered with them and the coping mechanisms until they could cope and then moved it on a stage to where THEY could do shopping themselves and then onto THEM actually buying themselves something.

Small steps.....very small steps.

*I never smack or shout, everything is done in a calm manner, even when they have the screaming ab dabs in the middle of a busy supermarket.

Depends how it is done and how it's dealt with.Sometimes you have to remove,whether it be for their safety,safety for others or because their meltdown is huge.It also depends on why it is causing a problem.It's common practice with professionals,for example,to work towards self removal from a situation for an autistic child to encourage them to have some self control -they can remove themselves,relax and then come back when they have calmed.

If you remove from a situation,you need to ensure that you build it back up and introduce stratagies.If you remove and give up or leave it to long then you have a big problem!

Richie-from-the-Boro

SingleSue wrote: »

One of the worse things you can do with an autistic child is to remove them from what is causing them stress.....trying to do it later and building in strategies could be too late. You need to start working on the stresses straight away whilst in the situation and building in extra strategies for the next time so it does not happen or if it does, it happens in a smaller way.

I never once left the supermarket with the boys, I did start to avoid going with them at one point until I realised that they would not learn at all doing it that way and so then persevered with them and the coping mechanisms until they could cope and then moved it on a stage to where THEY could do shopping themselves and then onto THEM actually buying themselves something.

Small steps.....very small steps.

*I never smack or shout, everything is done in a calm manner, even when they have the screaming ab dabs in the middle of a busy supermarket.

(2)
SingleSue,

- at what age were you made aware of your bairns illness
- and at what age did you begin to teach positive coping strategies

For myself, I have long believed this Jesuit saying to be a truism .. .. "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man"

If we, for the purpose of this debate only, all agree that its a truism and has empirical support when its applied to both (1) 'normal' and those in the (2) Autistic spectrum it raises in the context of #73 an often overlooked and almost 100% neglected issue, that of the parent.

Diagnosis, intervention, treatment and funding are wholly focussed on the child. Now most if not all caring people would say that's the way to should be .. .. but is it ?

Isn't it the case that the child's best chances in life will be provided not by state mechanisms and / or / medical interventions but by the lifelong love of parent ?

Objectively, early diagnosis of the child will only ever be of help if the parent is heavily supported and indeed 'trained' [#73] in those very early years of the child s cognitive learning. I have long believed that the state should re-examine the national strategy and change the emphasis / funding / structured training and support directed at the parent in those early years.

The best chances for any child 'normal' or those in the Autistic spectrum come from parenting skills. The parent of a child in the Autistic spectrum needs a lot more help and support in parenting than a parent with a 'normal' child. How on earth anyone in the big round world can believe that parents of autistic spectrum children come into the world already equipped with a well honed professional skill set to properly assist the learning needs of an autistic child is an unreasonable assumption.

In short too much endless research on the child .. .. and not enough time / money / effort on asking the parent / teaching the parent / direct evidence gathering from the parent / best parenting practice outcomes etc. Will doing what I suggest cure autism ? - no of course it won't, but what it will do is help a newbie parent get off the blocks to a quick start in those critical early years with proven positive outcomes for the autistic child much quicker than the current ' let 'em flounder and learn ' model that used to be called the 'sitting next to Nellie' school of leaning.

NOTE : the 'sitting next to Nellie' school of leaning, was and continues to be based on the active not passive learning functions and it a brilliant model however the parent of a child in the spectrum does not have the luxury of 8 hours per day one to one support and teaching. Without that 8 hours a day the state input seems to have evolved to a ' let 'em flounder and learn ' model.