Fischer Storage Heaters

Reed_Richards

QrizB said:

But what does this mean? Well the electrical systems all used similar amounts of electricity, so the difference in cost will simply be down to E7 at ~10p/kWh vs. standard rate electricity at ~15p/kWh. The Fischer system will cost 50% more to run.

I got a bit lost at this point.  Firstly because your prices for E7 and standard rate seem a bit optimistic these days.  Secondly because I was not clear how you concluded that the Fischer system would cost 50% more to run.  For example in the case of the constant 21 C, the average cost of a heater that runs throughout the day would be (7*10+17*15)/24 =13.54 p/kWh.  If you compare this to a night storage heater which can function entirely on E7 at 10 p/kWh then the all-day heater would be 35.4% more expensive to run.   

QrizB

Reed_Richards said:

QrizB said:

But what does this mean? Well the electrical systems all used similar amounts of electricity, so the difference in cost will simply be down to E7 at ~10p/kWh vs. standard rate electricity at ~15p/kWh. The Fischer system will cost 50% more to run.

I got a bit lost at this point.  Firstly because your prices for E7 and standard rate seem a bit optimistic these days.  Secondly because I was not clear how you concluded that the Fischer system would cost 50% more to run.  For example in the case of the constant 21 C, the average cost of a heater that runs throughout the day would be (7*10+17*15)/24 =13.54 p/kWh.  If you compare this to a night storage heater which can function entirely on E7 at 10 p/kWh then the all-day heater would be 35.4% more expensive to run.   

Ah, OK, that's because I've assumed the Fischer is run on single-rate electricity not E7. The E7 day rate is generally higher than the E7 night rate, such that 24/7 use of E7 is not cheaper than single-rate electricity.

Picking a recent BG tariff for my region at random, "Fixed price Apr 2022" has E7 at 8.66p/kWh night & 20p/kWh day or single-rate at 15.551p/kWh, and gas at 3.31p/kWh. The "average" electricity rate on E7 is 16.6925p/kWh, more than the single-rate tariff.

Using those BG tariffs and assuming 10MWh/yr of heat demand as before gives:

• Gas: £496.50/yr
• E7 NSH: £866/yr
• Single-rate Fischer: £1555.10/yr
• E7 Fischer: £1669.25/yr

So using Fischer's own report and that tariff info, switching from gas will more than triple your energy bill and switching from NSH will almost double it.

Edit 05/12/2021: I don''t want to bump the thread but the tariff quoted above is no longer representative. BG's current Standard Variable tariff for my region has E7 at 12.67p/kWh night & 24.08p/kWh day or single-rate at 20.68p/kWh and gas at 4.17p/kWh. The average rate on E7 is now 20.75p/kWh.

With those tariffs and the same 10MWh/yr of heat demand, you get:

• Gas: £625.50/yr
• E7 NSH: £1267/yr
• Single-rate Fischer: £2068/yr
• E7 Fischer: £2075/yr

E7 NSHs are still ~2x the price of gas, and panel heaters are ~2/3rds more expensive to run than NSH.

Edit 08/03/2022: Another price cap period and another tariff increase. This time I'm using EDF's Standard Variable tariff for my region (because I have the prices to hand).

E7 is 17.93p/kWh night & 33.20p/kWh day or single-rate at 28.46p/kWh and gas at 7.48p/kWh. The average rate on E7 is now 28.75p/kWh.

With those tariffs and the same 10MWh/yr of heat demand, you get:

• Gas: £1122/yr
• E7 NSH: £1793/yr
• Single-rate Fischer: £2846/yr
• E7 Fischer: £2875/yr

E7 NSHs are now only ~1.5x the price of gas, and panel heaters are a bit less than 2/3rds more expensive to run than NSH.

Edit 30/06/2023: I've missed a whole heap of price cap changes so here's a limited catch-up. Even allowing for the EPG, EDF's Southern SVT for January 2023 was a bit of a shocker: E7 is 13.76p/kWh night & 48.55p/kWh day or single-rate at 34.27p/kWh with gas at 10.46p/kWh. The average rate on E7 was then 33.94p/kWh.

With those tariffs and the same 10MWh/yr of heat demand, you get:

• Gas: £1569/yr
• E7 NSH: £1376/yr (now cheaper than gas!)
  
• Single-rate Fischer: £3427/yr
• E7 Fischer: £3394/yr

But as I write, the rates above are history. It's about to be July, prices have fallen and the EPG is no longer in play. EDF's rates for July 2023 in the Southern region have E7 at 15.35p/kWh night & 38.70p/kWh day, single-rate at 30.30p/kWh with gas at 7.61p/kWh. The average rate on E7 was then 28.89p/kWh.

With those tariffs and the same 10MWh/yr of heat demand, you get:

• Gas: £1142/yr
• E7 NSH: £1535/yr
  
• Single-rate Fischer: £3030/yr
• E7 Fischer: £2889/yr

Edit 06/09/2023: Another price cap period, and EDF's rates for October 2023. These are are slightly lower than July. In the Southern region you're looking at E7 with 12.43p/kWh night & 36.54p/kWh day, single-rate at 27.51p/kWh and gas at 6.992p/kWh. The average (composite) rate on E7 works out as 26.41p/kWh.

As the number of new threads concerning Fischer heaters has fallen, I'm going to refer to "panel heaters" generically. Fancy German-sounding brands or miraculous clay don't make them any more cost-effective than a £30 Argos convector. I'm also adding a line for the cost of running panel heaters exclusively during the E7 daytime rate, which seems to crop up quite often as a bright idea on the forum.

The new tariffs give, for 10MWh of heat demand and the same boiler efficiency assumptions as before:

• Gas: £1049/yr
• E7 NSH: £1243/yr
  
• Single-rate panel heaters: £2751/yr
• E7 composite rate panel heaters: £2641/yr
• E7 daytime rate panel heaters: £3654/yr

The October cap runs through to the end of December and covers the first, warmer, half of the winter. Hopefully the January cap won't be any higher than this!

Edit 14/12/2023: Yes, a new quarter and new EDF rates for January 2024. These increased since October, so my hopes were misplaced. In the Southern region you're looking at E7 with 16.44p/kWh night & 36.00p/kWh day, single-rate at 28.79p/kWh and gas at 7.517p/kWh. The average (composite) rate on E7 works out as 27.78p/kWh.

The new tariffs give, for 10MWh of heat demand and the same boiler efficiency assumptions as before:

• Gas: £1128/yr
• E7 NSH: £1644/yr
  
• Single-rate panel heaters: £2879/yr
• E7 composite rate panel heaters: £2778/yr
• E7 daytime rate panel heaters: £3600/yr

markbloke

Some news about Fischer:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10028791/Couple-charge-supplying-power-100-000-homes-face-trial-fraud-aggressive-selling.html

QrizB

markbloke said:

Some news about Fischer:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10028791/Couple-charge-supplying-power-100-000-homes-face-trial-fraud-aggressive-selling.html

The Fischer trial starts in about a fortnight (subject to any effects of the barrister's strike):
https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/fischer-future-heat-court-date-7387134

A pre-trial review hearing was held at Leicester Crown Court this morning [27th Jul 2022]. The defendants are: Keith and Maria Bastian, both 57 and both of Lutterworth Road, Aylestone, Leicester; Isabelle Bastian, 28, of Sanvey Gate, Leicester city centre; and Graham Nicholls, 71, of Kenwood Road, Knighton, Leicester.

The counts include:

• Fraud by false representation against Fischer Future Heat UK Ltd, which Trading Standards alleged was carried out with the consent or “connivance” of, or was due to the neglect of, the company’s founders Keith and Maria Bastian, and Isabelle Bastian, who worked for the business. Namely:

1. That the consumer would save money on heating their homes by installing and using their heating systems;
2. That their heating systems were a suitable and economical match for the needs of the consumer’s household;
3. That the heaters were capable of storing heat to a more than a minimal degree;
4. That the heaters were suitable replacements for night storage heaters;
5. That the heaters were bespoke, and custom built to the customer’s precise requirements;
6. That the heating systems were compatible, safe and appropriate to be installed using the existing power source and electrical arrangements present in the consumers home.

• A claim that Keith and Maria Bastian and Isabelle Bastian were accountable for the business when it “engaged in an aggressive commercial practice by misinforming consumers as to their statutory rights to cancel“.
• An allegation suggesting Keith, Maria and Isabelle Bastian should be held accountable for “an aggressive commercial practice by a sales representative offering to take a consumer to the bank to enable them to pay for a heating system in full, which, in its factual context, taking account of all of its features and circumstances, significantly impaired, or was likely to significantly impair, the average consumer’s freedom of choice through the use of harassment, coercion or undue influence, by placing undue pressure upon the consumer to pay immediately and thereby caused or was likely to cause the average consumer to take a transactional decision which he would not have taken otherwise”.
• That the company “engaged in an unfair commercial practice by falsely stating that heating systems would only be available on particular terms, namely a discounted price, for a limited time, in order to elicit an immediate decision and deprive consumers of sufficient opportunity or time to make an informed choice”.

Nicholls is facing four charges relating to fraud.

Other claims are also listed in the court documents. Today's hearing also heard that the case would involve up to 55 separate witnesses, with 34 expected to appear in court and 21 appearing via a video link.

The trial is due to start on Tuesday, August 30, at Leicester Crown Court. It is expected to last for at least 10 weeks. However, the ongoing barristers' strike is expected to have an impact on how long it takes to conclude the trial.

Section62

QrizB said:

markbloke said:

Some news about Fischer:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10028791/Couple-charge-supplying-power-100-000-homes-face-trial-fraud-aggressive-selling.html

The Fischer trial starts in about a fortnight (subject to any effects of the barrister's strike):

How things have changed since the start of this thread when the MSE team were kept very busy deleting text.

Swipe

I hope they throw the book at them

eric4395

Swipe said:

I hope they throw the book at them

Think they more or less got away with it. 
Just basically told to change there ways?

Logen

Charges were dropped and a formal not guilty finding was the court outcome, but only because the defendants came to an agreement, including compensation, with Trading Standards. See:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/fraud-aggressive-sales-allegations-dropped-7649427

QrizB

Logen said:

Charges were dropped and a formal not guilty finding was the court outcome, but only because the defendants came to an agreement, including compensation, with Trading Standards. See:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/fraud-aggressive-sales-allegations-dropped-7649427

Thanks for the link.

Hopefully they really will change, but there's that saying about leopards and spots ...