Fischer Storage Heaters

macman

Undersized heaters won't cost you any more to run. It takes xkWh of energy to heat your room from 18C to 23C (which would be a very expensive target temp to set on any system BTW). Whether that is achieved with a 1kW heater or a 3kW heater is immaterial, as each kWh still costs the same.

Obviously, if you have undersized them to the extent that the heat input is struggling to keep up with the heat loss in cold weather, then it'll take much longer to get to the target temp. But, if you had 100% insulation, the consumption and cost would be exactly the same, large or small.

The magic custard heaters aren't any less efficient than conventional storage heaters. They just aren't any more efficient, and the running costs are high, because they don't benefit from E7 rates. And the capital outlay is ridiculous.

PJBECKETT_2

Fischer Electronic radiators. 
To keep things in perspective: The UK supplier of these units is not the same as the German company. 
Fischer FutureHeat UK has a poor reputation, has "double-glazing / Timeshare selling tactics" and has very poor after sales. They have many findings against them by the ASA for misleading ADs and are just to face court action by Trading Standards (search Leicester Mercury Fischer). 
The heaters are popular in Germany (That's who have been trading for 70 years). They are of good construction and use high quality materials. Germans do not accept anything less (think Merc / BMW).  
German houses are VERY well insulated (200mm PIR foam in new build walls), so very little heat loss, most UK homes have very little and basic insulation, our homes are draughty and we leave doors / windows open.
Germans have many electrical schemes which support Eco energy and this reduces costs for electricity. They also invest in new technology early and have the infrastructure (and government support) to make things like solar panels and battery boxes (electricity off-peak storage) practical. You can see this comming into the UK via Fischers new brouchures. The UK is about 7 years behind. 
The future will be electric as Gas is running out and electricity is delivered to almost every house in the UK for additional uses. The problems are that the infrastructure currently won't support a massive change and the government hasn't yet woken up to what will be needed, that's why Electric car charging isn't being pushed fully, we just couldn't cope with the switch in demand. Last year a 0.2% jumpin demand nearly tookdown part of the grid.
Is there a solution to replacement of GCH, LPG, OIL or other heating systems AND save money? 
In short if you factor in the extortionate cost of the heaters new then No, the actual cost to build / ship  each heater is about 20% of what is charged to the customer the rest goes on bonuses, marketing and director profits, this is why certain sales staff stick with them. The heaters are expensive to run, but ALL fuels are expensive in the UK market. The claims of 50% which attract people relate to efficiency compared to 20 year old storage heaters NOT savings we will pay (check the literature for ANY claims to save MONEY - they aren't there). If you have LPG /OIL this is also expensive, gas is getting expensive on all plans and is a finite resource so will continue to increase (that's why Mr Putin has built a pipeline all the way from Russia to Europe, to cash in on a dwindling resource). 
There are other Clay-Core radiators which have models on the market in the UK and are trying to get a foothold. The companies are very small. They are NOT STORAGE heaters (nor are Fischer) and the storage is minimal (see court case). They are all designed to be on all day (with thermostat control) to keep the room background temp warm. If you (like me) use Economy 7 bills will be slightly more expensive in the day but you can keep warmer overnight / early morning if that is important to you. If you are at home all day Econonmy 7 (from Storage heating) may no longer be the cheapest (as these are not storage heaters). If the system is not operated as per instructions, that is allowed to be on all day as needed by the system  (in an attempt to save money) they become very expensive to run (heating room from cold takes longer, cost more). 
What about second hand?. There are increasing numbers of heaters that are for sale on the second hand market. This has risks and means more leg-work and is not a "soloution-in-a-box", so not suitable for many, but can provide an option,  costs are around 20% of original price, most are 3-5 years old (this is the "give-up" point for most users), forget about the 10year warranty claim as owner transfers cancel this out unless Fischer remove, transport and refit. If you get a qualified electrician to check & fit them (on a correct load circuit) you could benefit from the technology without paying the high price (this has been bourne by the original purchaser, as with a brand new showroom car versus one 2-3 years old. To start with you can "test the water" with a single plug-in radiator in one room. Do your homework and monitor your Elecricity bill. Be realistic don't expect any savings over traditional GCH if you are running an old boiler along-side (remember you still to factor in need for hot water).
In summary, the heaters are well made and good quality, they work well  (efficiency) but are expensive to run, you won't get anywhere near the "savings" claimed. If purchased new expect rushed installation (the engineers have many jobs in one day), quite poor after-sales service (staff are chasing new sales) and little chance of the heaters paying for themselves within their useful lifetime. In the next 10-15 years there is going to be significant change in energy demand versus supply and the UK is behind the curve. The "renewables"  all produce electricty (apart from ground water heating) so the focus for energy will always be on moving in this direction (think cars now). Oil and gas are running out, the only current research for existing domestic equipment concerns if boilers could be converted to run on hydrogen at some time in the future. The best strategy is high insulation efficiency of your home (there is a low priced scheme currently running, "warm homes") and there needs to be more honest players entering the market for reasonably priced electric heating. Near Infrared heating panels (heat humans, not air) are available but again runs on electricity. 
The words are my own opinions and from my own experience. I accept I may be in a better situation with regard to obtaining / checking and fitting  

Hasbeen

PJBECKETT_2 said:

Fischer Electronic radiators. 
To keep things in perspective: The UK supplier of these units is not the same as the German company. 
Fischer FutureHeat UK has a poor reputation, has "double-glazing / Timeshare selling tactics" and has very poor after sales. They have many findings against them by the ASA for misleading ADs and are just to face court action by Trading Standards (search Leicester Mercury Fischer). 
The heaters are popular in Germany (That's who have been trading for 70 years). They are of good construction and use high quality materials. Germans do not accept anything less (think Merc / BMW).  
German houses are VERY well insulated (200mm PIR foam in new build walls), so very little heat loss, most UK homes have very little and basic insulation, our homes are draughty and we leave doors / windows open.
Germans have many electrical schemes which support Eco energy and this reduces costs for electricity. They also invest in new technology early and have the infrastructure (and government support) to make things like solar panels and battery boxes (electricity off-peak storage) practical. You can see this comming into the UK via Fischers new brouchures. The UK is about 7 years behind. 
The future will be electric as Gas is running out and electricity is delivered to almost every house in the UK for additional uses. The problems are that the infrastructure currently won't support a massive change and the government hasn't yet woken up to what will be needed, that's why Electric car charging isn't being pushed fully, we just couldn't cope with the switch in demand. Last year a 0.2% jumpin demand nearly tookdown part of the grid.
Is there a solution to replacement of GCH, LPG, OIL or other heating systems AND save money? 
In short if you factor in the extortionate cost of the heaters new then No, the actual cost to build / ship  each heater is about 20% of what is charged to the customer the rest goes on bonuses, marketing and director profits, this is why certain sales staff stick with them. The heaters are expensive to run, but ALL fuels are expensive in the UK market. The claims of 50% which attract people relate to efficiency compared to 20 year old storage heaters NOT savings we will pay (check the literature for ANY claims to save MONEY - they aren't there). If you have LPG /OIL this is also expensive, gas is getting expensive on all plans and is a finite resource so will continue to increase (that's why Mr Putin has built a pipeline all the way from Russia to Europe, to cash in on a dwindling resource). 
There are other Clay-Core radiators which have models on the market in the UK and are trying to get a foothold. The companies are very small. They are NOT STORAGE heaters (nor are Fischer) and the storage is minimal (see court case). They are all designed to be on all day (with thermostat control) to keep the room background temp warm. If you (like me) use Economy 7 bills will be slightly more expensive in the day but you can keep warmer overnight / early morning if that is important to you. If you are at home all day Econonmy 7 (from Storage heating) may no longer be the cheapest (as these are not storage heaters). If the system is not operated as per instructions, that is allowed to be on all day as needed by the system  (in an attempt to save money) they become very expensive to run (heating room from cold takes longer, cost more). 
What about second hand?. There are increasing numbers of heaters that are for sale on the second hand market. This has risks and means more leg-work and is not a "soloution-in-a-box", so not suitable for many, but can provide an option,  costs are around 20% of original price, most are 3-5 years old (this is the "give-up" point for most users), forget about the 10year warranty claim as owner transfers cancel this out unless Fischer remove, transport and refit. If you get a qualified electrician to check & fit them (on a correct load circuit) you could benefit from the technology without paying the high price (this has been bourne by the original purchaser, as with a brand new showroom car versus one 2-3 years old. To start with you can "test the water" with a single plug-in radiator in one room. Do your homework and monitor your Elecricity bill. Be realistic don't expect any savings over traditional GCH if you are running an old boiler along-side (remember you still to factor in need for hot water).
In summary, the heaters are well made and good quality, they work well  (efficiency) but are expensive to run, you won't get anywhere near the "savings" claimed. If purchased new expect rushed installation (the engineers have many jobs in one day), quite poor after-sales service (staff are chasing new sales) and little chance of the heaters paying for themselves within their useful lifetime. In the next 10-15 years there is going to be significant change in energy demand versus supply and the UK is behind the curve. The "renewables"  all produce electricty (apart from ground water heating) so the focus for energy will always be on moving in this direction (think cars now). Oil and gas are running out, the only current research for existing domestic equipment concerns if boilers could be converted to run on hydrogen at some time in the future. The best strategy is high insulation efficiency of your home (there is a low priced scheme currently running, "warm homes") and there needs to be more honest players entering the market for reasonably priced electric heating. Near Infrared heating panels (heat humans, not air) are available but again runs on electricity. 
The words are my own opinions and from my own experience. I accept I may be in a better situation with regard to obtaining / checking and fitting  

What?  TLDR!  Please see here: What are paragraphs? - BBC Bitesize

Paragraph - Wikipedia

LOL

Gerry1

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/fischer-future-heat-uk-face-4821958

Tallerdave

macman said:

Undersized heaters won't cost you any more to run. It takes xkWh of energy to heat your room from 18C to 23C (which would be a very expensive target temp to set on any system BTW). Whether that is achieved with a 1kW heater or a 3kW heater is immaterial, as each kWh still costs the same.

Obviously, if you have undersized them to the extent that the heat input is struggling to keep up with the heat loss in cold weather, then it'll take much longer to get to the target temp. But, if you had 100% insulation, the consumption and cost would be exactly the same, large or small.

The magic custard heaters aren't any less efficient than conventional storage heaters. They just aren't any more efficient, and the running costs are high, because they don't benefit from E7 rates. And the capital outlay is ridiculous.

Whilst I agree with the argument, there's one subtle difference (assuming no optimum start function is being used). A single heater will take much longer to reach the set temperature, so the total time spent at the set temperature (feeding the losses) will be less than with a 3 heater setup. Thus you'll use a bit less electricity with the single heater because your place is actually colder for longer.

macman

Agreed. The rate of heat loss increases as the inside temp increases, as the differential is greater.

That's why I stated that, in theory, with no measurable heat loss, it would make no difference.

In practical terms, you would however be cold most of the time...

Cardew

PJBECKETT_2 said:

Fischer Electronic radiators. 
 forget about the 10year warranty claim as owner transfers cancel this out unless Fischer remove, transport and refit.

Just a point on the 10 year warranty. See:

https://www.fischerfutureheat.com/8-reasons-choose-fischer-future-heat/  see reasons 5 & 6

In case you can't readily read small print you might miss that this gem '* with two years on electrical components'

So these are electrical heaters with a 10 year warranty, but the electrical components only have a 2 year warranty.

Mmm - can anyone think of a fault that will prevent the room reaching 21C that isn't caused by an electrical component?

1dMeredith

pickerte said:

Recently bought this system, it's in early days at present but not happy, it has batteries which keep recharging at various times as well as when water is drawn off, this means using electricity often on the day rates, I understood that it's operation was to use electricity only when hot water was used. Not so!!! very difficult to evaluate, it does give hot water as described and takes up less room than my old Cylinder but it costs a lot to purchase and run.
I now have to watch how I use hot water and often use cold, so that I keep costs down but this is not what it was purchased for and any way the batteries still keep charging.


Sorry I didn't investigate further!!!

Thank you for this information.  I have been contemplating purchasing this system for water heating with my Economy 7 energy tariff.  There doesn't seem to be any other "storage" combi boilers. So this seemed to be an ideal solution,  but at £4000 with discount because I already have the heating system it's a huge investment.  I was able to get the sales person to give me until the end of the week to get back to him and have been trying to find something comparable.  

GG7

As a builder (retired) I was interested in these to replace our useless storage warm air unit, as we have no gas in our area. I was well aware of this company's reputation but wanted a brochure to get more details. I was forced to send them a email request as it was impossible to download a copy. Lo and behold, the same day as the brochure arrived I received an email offering me an appointment with one of their "heating engineers" i.e. saleman. I agreed to this with eyes wide open. Before he could call I determined that it would be illegal under the Covid rules for him to enter our house. In fact, currently not even their engineers are allowed in to fit the heaters unless it is to replace a heating system which has broken down. Before he arrived I prepared a list of each of the room sizes along with its insulation. When I told him that he was not allowed to enter our house he informed me that the government had given them essential worker status and so could enter our house; a blatant lie!!  He refused to give me any indication of cost saying that he must measure the sizes of the rooms and estimate their insulation level. He refused to accept my figures even though I built the place!!!  When I pushed him to give me some idea of cost he refused and when I told him that Aquaflow (probably their biggest competitor) had no problem publishing their prices (approx. 25% of Fischer) he walked off in the huff.

Anyway I bought four (totalling 5Kw) on an eBay auction for £670 which was about 10% of what Fischer would charge. However I have now come across more misinformation from Fischer. They tell you that their heaters are not suitable for Economy 10 tariffs but in fact SSE actually state that this tariff is best suited for this type of heating. They also tell you that their thermostat loses its pairing with the receiver when the power is disconnected (the re-pairing process is one step away from a degree in electrical engineering!!!). This means that you would not be able to use you own time clocks to control them. This is nonsense, when I fitted mine they had been disconnected for some three months and the thermostats were still paired to the receivers. Goodness knows why they give this misinformation.

For me these are ideal, particularly as my house is super insulated and I have separate time controlled heating circuits. They look good, they are very well built and are simple to install and I am very impressed with the accuracy of the thermostats, The initial cost was a tiny fraction of installing an oil fired or lpg heating system. It is clear that the price of fossil fuelled heating will be taxed higher in the future when the government capitulates to the "Green Lobby". So who knows, maybe I will end up being in the lead!!!!!!   

So if you need to go down this route, buy them second hand now as the price is sure to increase (or buy Aquaflow if you need brand new ones) 

Do not allow Fischer's salespeople into your house unless you are prepared for a hard sell with the usual fake discounts for immediate purchase.

Do not forget to compare electricity tariffs as there are smaller companies who will sell you all your electricity at a lower rate than the main companies' off peak rates.

coffeehound

What do you find the "storage" time of these heaters to be @GG7?  I suspect it's less than an hour in practical terms?  

You say you are impressed with the accuracy of the thermostat, but how does this work exactly?  Proper modern storage heaters such as Dimplex Quantum use a fan to control how much heat they release in order to maintain the set room temperature.  

Does the Fischer FH have a fan or indeed any moving parts at all to control the rate of heat release?  Does it use a direct heating element to give instant heat?  If so it's not acting as a storage heater.  

If it has none of these things but still claims to control room temperature accurately, then it's not a storage heater.  I don't see how these non-storage heaters could possibly work acceptably with any sort of intermittent / off-peak supply tariff.

As to the aesthetics, they look like the side of a bulk shipping container to me, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.