Fischer Storage Heaters

GG7

coffeehound said:

What do you find the "storage" time of these heaters to be @GG7?  I suspect it's less than an hour in practical terms?  

You say you are impressed with the accuracy of the thermostat, but how does this work exactly?  Proper modern storage heaters such as Dimplex Quantum use a fan to control how much heat they release in order to maintain the set room temperature.  

Does the Fischer FH have a fan or indeed any moving parts at all to control the rate of heat release?  Does it use a direct heating element to give instant heat?  If so it's not acting as a storage heater.  

If it has none of these things but still claims to control room temperature accurately, then it's not a storage heater.  I don't see how these non-storage heaters could possibly work acceptably with any sort of intermittent / off-peak supply tariff.

As to the aesthetics, they look like the side of a bulk shipping container to me, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all.

I think I have confused you. I was merely relating my own experience, in particular my dealings with Fischer, in the hope that it would help others. I was not recommending anyone to use these heaters without doing a lot of research as to whether they would be suitable. I needed a new heating system to replace an outdated electric warm air system. I had to take into account the initial installation costs and upheaval of installing a new system, the ease of use, the efficiency of the heat distribution, the running costs both present and future, the controllability and also the time we would have left in this house.

I cannot answer how long the storage heat would last as I have only just installed them, in any event this would depend on so many parameters that I doubt if even Fischer would answer this.

A storage heater is by definition a heater which stores heat to be emitted after the power source is removed. There any many types of storage capacity ranging from oil filled heaters through ceramic core heaters (the Fischer type) to ultimately night storage heaters.

Your comments on Fischer heaters not being night storage heaters like the Dimplex one you mention are futile and irrelevant as Fischer (and I presume other manufacturers) clearly state that their heaters are not night storage heaters.

The thermostats are made by a highly reputable company called Delta Dore, you can do your own research as to their capabilities.

As for your hyperbolic comment on the appearance of the heaters, I would hope that if I visited your house and didn't like the appearance of something then I would have the good manners and decency to keep that opinion to myself.

To emphasise again. This system suits me. It will probably not suit many others especially if bought new and the house did not have a  very high level of insulation. However I do hope that my comments will help others decide what is best for them.

coffeehound

GG7 said:

I think I have confused you. I was merely relating my own experience, in particular my dealings with Fischer, in the hope that it would help others. I was not recommending anyone to use these heaters without doing a lot of research as to whether they would be suitable. I needed a new heating system to replace an outdated electric warm air system. I had to take into account the initial installation costs and upheaval of installing a new system, the ease of use, the efficiency of the heat distribution, the running costs both present and future, the controllability and also the time we would have left in this house.

I cannot answer how long the storage heat would last as I have only just installed them, in any event this would depend on so many parameters that I doubt if even Fischer would answer this.

A storage heater is by definition a heater which stores heat to be emitted after the power source is removed. There any many types of storage capacity ranging from oil filled heaters through ceramic core heaters (the Fischer type) to ultimately night storage heaters.

Your comments on Fischer heaters not being night storage heaters like the Dimplex one you mention are futile and irrelevant as Fischer (and I presume other manufacturers) clearly state that their heaters are not night storage heaters.

The thermostats are made by a highly reputable company called Delta Dore, you can do your own research as to their capabilities.

As for your hyperbolic comment on the appearance of the heaters, I would hope that if I visited your house and didn't like the appearance of something then I would have the good manners and decency to keep that opinion to myself.

To emphasise again. This system suits me. It will probably not suit many others especially if bought new and the house did not have a  very high level of insulation. However I do hope that my comments will help others decide what is best for them.

The trouble is that this manufacturer, and others of similar products, do not make it clear that their products are not night storage heaters -- quite the opposite they use the word storage frequently and in a way that confuses people about what they are buying, e.g.



The fact is that the magic clay serves absolutely no useful purpose.  It just slows down the rate at which heat is given out.  What is the use of that?  No use whatsoever.  If you want slower heat delivery then fit any lower-power heater instead.  The clay will also directly work against the effectiveness of a thermostat because it acts as a delay on heat delivery which can only reduce the efficiency of the control system.

Sorry but your post suggesting that these would work well with something like Economy10 only helps to muddy the waters for consumers as these definitely are not designed to work with dual-rate tariffs.

Well done on only paying £160? per heater, but you could have got something that did the job better, quicker cheaper, lighter and better looking for a lot less.

DebtFreeDream_2

I've just bought a one bed house with 3 Fischer heaters in it, one in the living room, bedroom and bathroom. I've got to say, they're good quality heaters and I really like the timer/thermostats, but they don't store any heat as such (they remain warm for 20-30 mins) and take similar to warm up from cold. I've replaced the one in the bathroom with a towel rail/heater (it was broken and no towel rail?!?) and plan to replace the downstairs one with a Dimplex Quantum storage heater later in the year.

They are just fancy panel heaters really, and coming from a similar sized flat with storage heaters that I knew how to operate properly, I realise my whole heating mentality had changed from "I need to turn the heaters on because it's cold outside" to "I need to turn the heaters off because it's warm outside". I sort of miss my home always just being warm and not worrying so much about how much it cost because it was cheaper overnight E7 heat. I think I'm going to keep the bedroom one though, where I mostly just need a boost of heat late in the evening or mornings.

The way I look at the running costs are that in my old flat (which is about the same size as my new house) I’d charge my main 3.4Kw storage heater for 5 hours, so that’s 17Kw costing £1.65 @ 9.7p KwH. My daytime tariff is 16.26p KwH so to cost the same, I can only turn my main Fischer heater on for about 3 hours a day to get the same cost. I’m trying to figure out if 3 hours of thermostat controlled heat during the day, is at least equal in cost to 5 hours of continuous overnight storage heater charging. I guess I’ll find out, but I’m pretty sure it’s been on more than 3 hours every day, and with careful use I could keep my flat warm all day from 8am – 9pm, and then a little 1-2Kw panel heater for an hour in the bedroom.

Anyway, just feeding back my experiences, I know it’s a contentious subject, my own gut feeling is that E7 storage heaters would work better for me, but they could be a good fit for someone else.

Edit: just for comparison, my old flat had an Energy Efficiency Rating of C, and my new house is D

Reed_Richards

Much of the criticism of Fischer heaters stems from how expensive they are for what you get.  As they came with the house that's something you don't have to worry about.   

matelodave

Reed_Richards said:

Much of the criticism of Fischer heaters stems from how expensive they are for what you get.  As they came with the house that's something you don't have to worry about.   

Not totally true,although the extortional cost has a great deal to do with it.
Many people have been persuaded to swap out E7 heaters by the inference that they are "storage" heaters filled with magic clay which has supernatural poweres which are superior to the old brick sort.
he consequence is that.they have to be used on peak rate supplies and are significantly more expensive to run especially for the sort of people that the advertising is aimed at, many of whom are at home all day and storage heating works reasonably well for their lifestyle.

Reed_Richards

Yes, it's unfortunate that the title of this thread is "Fischer Storage Heaters" because, as @DebtFreeDream_2 correctly observed, they are not storage heaters

DebtFreeDream_2

Reed_Richards said:

Much of the criticism of Fischer heaters stems from how expensive they are for what you get.  As they came with the house that's something you don't have to worry about.   

That's very true, although when making an offer, I had to take in to account that I would want to spend up to £1K on at least replacing the main one with a storage heater. For me personally, seeing the house had Fischer heaters made it less desirable because thanks to this forum, I knew what they were, and that they would not suit my heating requirements.

I remember talking to the surveyor, and there was a pause and inward sigh from him when we came on to the house's heating. I just said I knew what they were and the potential problems. If this house had GCH then it would have been an amazing win and made the house much more desirable to me, instead it having Fischer heating had the opposite effect.

I genuinely believe I would have had to pay more for this house if it didn't have Fischer heating, which I'm actually grateful for - the heaters I can sort in time, and the mortgage is affordable. I think the vendor lost out buying Fischer heaters.       

Swipe

DebtFreeDream_2 said:

I genuinely believe I would have had to pay more for this house if it didn't have Fischer heating, which I'm actually grateful for - the heaters I can sort in time, and the mortgage is affordable. I think the vendor lost out buying Fischer heaters.       

Previously I would have agreed but I really don't think it makes much difference in the current booming market. I just have just accepted an offer well over the asking price on my house that has no central heating.

Cardew

Swipe said:

DebtFreeDream_2 said:

I genuinely believe I would have had to pay more for this house if it didn't have Fischer heating, which I'm actually grateful for - the heaters I can sort in time, and the mortgage is affordable. I think the vendor lost out buying Fischer heaters.       

Previously I would have agreed but I really don't think it makes much difference in the current booming market. I just have just accepted an offer well over the asking price on my house that has no central heating.

I agree.

The criticism of Fischer heaters is the way they are marketed and cost to buy.

However for the average house the running cost of a decent gas CH system against Fischer/panel heating will probably be less than £1000pa which is 'small beer' when the average house in UK is £200k+

QrizB

Because I'm a masochist I've read all 73 pages of this thread. (Well, that and it's had me laughing out loud more often than it really should.) Back on page 50 (the 19th of July 2017) we had this polemic from "netto", some sort of deep-sleeper who hasn't been back in the past four years:

netto said:

The Proof is in the heating: It's Proven beyond doubt:

We have been looking at this thread over 5 years , now we can clearly prove that these trowls on the site have no idea what they are talking about, we now know that Fischer heaters are more efficient than Dimplex Quantum , conventional storage heaters, also Gas central heating, thanks to Fischer you have just completed a head to head testing of various products. it's impressive to read the report by BRE in Watford ...

The post goes on a bit and I don't want to quote it all, it's there on page 50 (and 51 too, I think) if you want to check.

Anyway, what's interesting is that the BRE report really exists and is available to read on Fischer's website here:
https://www.fischerfutureheat.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/BRE-Test-Report.pdf

It's actually quite interesting in its way, full of experimental detail and with charts and tables showing the results of the tests. It's worth reading but if you don't fancy 48 pages here's a very brief summary.

• BRE constructed a simulated two-room flat inside an environmental chamber.
  
• The flat was heated, in turn, by five different heating sysyems: basic & premium Fischer, premium (Dimplex Quantum) & basic (Creda New Era) NSHs, and a Glowworm 12hxi gas boiler feeding conventional wet CH.
  
• BRE did two sets of tests on each system: steady state (a constant 21C, chamber at 5C) and a day/night state (21C day with chamber at 10C, 16C night with chamber at 0C).
• Each test took five days and the reported results are based on the middle three days (so the first day allowed the system to bed in).
  

Among BRE's conclusions were the following:

• For both steady state and day / night operation, all four electrical systems draw power at between 69 and 74W per degree temperature difference between the inside of the apartment and the outside, with an average value of 71.4 W per degree. This represents a range of -3% and +4% around the average, within the limits of experimental error, and cannot be attributed to any difference in efficiency between the electrical heating systems.
• The gas central heating system under test drew an average of 108 W per degree temperature difference which represents power consumption of approximately 50% more than electric heating (based on gas consumption). This is due to the specific inefficiencies of the system installed in relation to the test apartment, and cannot be quoted as a general figure to represent the difference in efficiency between gas central heating and electric heating. Actual figures will differ from installation to installation, even for the same boiler, and may be higher or lower.

But what does this mean? Well the electrical systems all used similar amounts of electricity, so the difference in cost will simply be down to E7 at ~10p/kWh vs. standard rate electricity at ~15p/kWh. The Fischer system will cost 50% more to run.

Gas was 50% higher consumption in this test but if gas is ~3.3p/kWh then NSHs will cost 100% more than gas and Fischer will cost 200% more.

Put another way, if the gas bill for heating the test flat is £500 then NSHs on E7 will be £1000 and Fischer on std rate will be £1500.