Divorce / csa / spousal maintenance

Giraffe5021

Thanks again to you all for your thoughts & advice.
To be honest I think Bubby has it about spot on.
The fact that mediation is continuing I am hoping is a positive sign that having seen the financials in black & white she realises the financial situation is unsustainable and my offer is not a million miles away from where things should end up.
My concern is that a while back (pre us agreeing to go to mediation) her solicitor came up with a suggested financial settlement which:
1) included me signing over all assets and not taking any element of the assets to which I am entitled
2) to pay CSA maintenance in the usual form (i.e. usual percentages / ages etc)
3) to pay spousal maintenance INDEFINITELY unless she remarries.
I consulted 2 different divorce lawyers who discribed the proposal as ridiculous and total wish list which would not be upheld.
That said what if a court were to uphold point 3? I hardly want to be paying SM out of my pension!! I think a period of c 3 years is reasonable.
I do however understand that ex is in a difficult situation. Just to turn the whole thing on its head (and despite what people may have read inbetween the lines of my previous postings) I was with ex 18 years, she is the mother of my 3 wonderful children and I do care about what happens to her in the future. I do want to achieve a financial settlement that is fair and reasonable to both parties - but that cannot be so one sided that I do not factor in that I have a life to live and wish to rebuild a home environment and move on in my life too.
I did make the point that to go the divorce lawyer route will just further erode the assets and will do neither of us any good in the long term. I emphasised that mediator is qualified divorce lawyer, is impartial (I hope!) and is by far the best option of achieving a sensible and fair settlement. My fear is that any agreement reached at mediation is not binding and will need to be drawn up by her solicitor (as the petitioner her solicitor is responsible for doing this). If he is a total ar*e and wants to play the rottweiler solicitor role he could make life very difficult and expensive.
The plan is I have all 3 children tomorrow and despite the good weather the UK is experiencing I am expecting a sharp drop in temperature towards freezing at c9am tomorrow morning although the forecast is that this will be extremely localised to the area immediately surrounding the ex marital home!!
One a personal note I want to thank Bubby - whilst not wishing to appear overly sycophantic your advice and support is logical, rational, balanced and always well thought through and is particularly helpful for me. I really appreciate it. Whats the hourly rate? LOL

ecgirl07

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

And the first reaction is in......
She feels the period of spousal maintenance (which would see them all at high school and therefore much more independent) is totally unreasonable.
I quote:
1) "Dont I care about my kids and if someone is there to cook them their tea?"
2) "I will tell the children how totally unreasonable you are being and ruining everyone's lives."
Regretfully cant say I am surprised - 1 is just a ridiculous comment to make after I have tried so hard to make it abundantly plain I care massively about my children and 2 frankly defies belief and is yet another example of exactly how parents should not use their children as weapons and (to quote princessdreamer) to "bad mouth" the other parent is a low low thing to do.

tell her in 3 years you will be set up in a suitable home and they can come to yours after school every day and you will feed them then bring them back to the family home.

She seems very dogmatic and linear and not willing to think round lifestyle solutions to suit everyone.

Good luck you seem a decent guy trying to do the best for everyone.

FBaby

Good luck facing the cold front, thankfully it will be a sharp wind followed quickly by a long lasting calmness!

It amazes me how some solicitors take their job and consideration of 'client's best interests' as trying to get them as much of a financial gain as possible. Could it be what is happening with your ex? When I approached my solicitor to discuss separation, after I told him the background, his first words were' what an !!!*, we'll make sure he gets nothing out of it', which shocked me. I was very angry with him because of lies and deception (to do with money), but I certainly wasn't after his blood, just a fair separation. Once I made that very clear, he was ok and actually turned out to be a very reasonable solicitor, but maybe that's the way of the profession for some, makes the client feels secure and trusting.

What I don't get though is if all she is after is gaining as much financial protection for the kids -fair enough-, why is she so bitter with contact too? She knew it was going to happen, you've discussed it, so not just your decision, and it's been 2 years... I suppose some people are just like this, always blaming others for their unhappiness and not prepared to ever move on. I hope for you she does meet a nice man soon, I bet she would then suddenly become a lot more flexible with contact!

Giraffe5021

Well I have to say the drop in tempertaure was nowhere near severe as I had anticipated so - trying to think positively - maybe there is just a possibility that some progress is being made. I am not getting excited just yet - I have had that thought before that things were moving on only for it to all turn ugly again.
Fbaby you make a very valid comment - I really feel she is, as the saying goes, cutting off her nose to spite her face in insisting that they cannot stay with me. Surely that just increases the pressure on her and I do totally accept bringing up 3 children is difficult and tiring..... so why not let them stay with me? That would free her up to have an adult social life and have a lay in even one day a week. I just cant get my head around it but at this stage have accepted she isnt going to change in the immediate future so I am just doing what I can to maintain contact with my children. Today I took boys to their football club and had a wonderful morning , then in the afternoon took daugher out window shopping for her birthday which is imminent. With regard to your comment about solicitors maybe some of them just get off on sc*ewing the party that isnt their client with no regard for what that means for the person they just steam rollered! That is why I am pushing so hard to keep pressing on with the mediation route.

GobbledyGook

Has she actually given you any idea how long she expects spousal maintenance to continue for?

I'm surprised that her solicitor is pushing her to try to get it indefinitely because I got spousal maintenance for a set period recently (for the time it takes our children to go to secondary school and then 3 years for me to do a degree at university) and it was questioned every step of the way by my legal people, his and in the court because it was viewed as "overly generous".
His lawyer made him sign a declaration that he'd advised against it, but that the ex still wanted to go ahead. My ex was happy (well willing, more than happy) because I gave up university to move with him when he was offered a job that allowed his career to get to where it is today. After university I ran our home practically single-handedly while he worked shed loads of hours, he feels it's only fair that I at least get the chance to get through uni and get to where I would have been.

You are right to be wary of a rottweiler solicitors. Mind very, very nearly caused WWIII by turning rottweiler at a point where she didn't need too and had the ex and I not been on really good terms it could have been awful for all concerned.

Also bear in mind that your children need a life with you too so you can't give away all of your income forever or else how do you do the fun things with them? I strongly believe children should be kept in the same lifestyle as much as possible, but not at all costs to the parent who is not living in the family home any longer.

surreybased

I am glad you are getting some support from this site - often men going through a martial separation don't have the emotional and practical support that women have around them.

I would encourage you to take the long term view - it is in your children's interests that you are able to fund a home for them to spend quality time with you. Hold on to that thought. If your ex had the children's interests truly at heart then she would see that at as well.

It is completely reasonable for spousal maintenance to end in 3 years. I have a fulltime job now my dc is at school, I would prefer to be around for him as he is young however (despite my dh earning a good income) I have to work, like many other mothers. It seems your ex is using emotional manipulation to avoid taking some financial responsibility for the children.

I'm not sure what is behind her behaviour but it appears similar to my Dh's ex who after many, many years and despite her remarrying multiple times is still very angry (despite her having affairs!). In your case I'm not sure time will be a healer if she hadn't moved forward in 2 years. My dh treaded carefully for many years but he finally accepted that he had to go to court to get contact and it was the best decision he ever made. It wasn't expensive as family court can be very straight forward as long as both parties are seen as "fit" parents. That debate might be for another thread but don't shy away from court - it is there to protect the CHILDREN's RIGHT to see both parents.

I do think you should robustly respond to her abusive comments - the children should not be lied too as that is very damaging for their emotional development. At a minimum diarise these outbursts and email her to ask that she refrains from making comments to the dc's. Do also keep a contact record for when you see the children and get a plan in place so that you can see the children overnight.

You have to be able to live with the financial settlement in the future and don't assume your earning potential will continue or indeed increase (what if it decreased?) however it is highly likely that your ex's income will increase in the future.

Giraffe5021

GobbledyGook and surreybased - thank you both for your replies.
Surreybased - you make a really good point - men often (me included) lack the emotional network around them to support them through such a traumatic time. Im not afraid to admit there are times when i have been supposed to have all 3 of my children for the day only to turn up at ex marital home to collect them to be told I cant have them....then gone home and sat a cried it hurt me that much. I think people forget the men have feelings too.
Both of your comments about spousal maintenance have given me more assurance that I will not get totally stitched up in the settlement so thanks for that. She has not said how long she thinks I should pay for only that 3 years is nowhere near enough.
Goobledygook - it is also refreshing to hear that your ex took what sounds like a fair approach to your personal career development / potential.
The diary is something I had started keeping (noting the abusive comments, denied contact with my kids etc) but mediator's view was that anything prior to mediation was the past and its about moving on from that meeting date. I do however think you are right - certainly a diary of such instances will (if I ever need to) prove how hard I tried to see my children despite the obstacles constantly being thrown in my path.
Thanks again.

Bubby

I'm glad that you managed to see your children:D

I think that you will start to find that she will take time to think over your offer (even despite her initial outburst) and if you don't discuss it she will start to believe that maybe that really is your best offer. My best bet will be that she will get advice from a solicitor to see what her position is and then after having some sense talked into her she will begrudgingly accept. Although judging from what you have said and the fact that she likes to have the upper hand she will throw something else into the mix that she wants just to feel that she has "won"

I really believe that your offer is on the generous side and having been through something similar and helped a friend with their case I really can't see her getting anything more than that.:)

Giraffe5021

Thanks Bubby.
Now that I know you assisted a friend through the process I understand why you have such a sound knowledge of the subject.
It has lifted my spirits enormously seeing all the children today.
I did express in mediation that this wasnt a pitch in low and be negotiated up type of offer...... it was a cut straight to the chase / best offer situation. Mediation Friday so will just wait and see what the reaction is then.

rachel6188

Good luck with mediation.
You sound like a great father, my mum and step dad have split and I still see my dad daily and nothings changed, my mum I don't have contact, my real father doesn't bother at all.
Its nice to hear of a father really trying to do the best for his children.
Take care.
Rachel x