Divorce / csa / spousal maintenance

dirtysexymonkey

you need to play the game just as your ex is. you need to safeguard your life so your children can have a decent time all the time, not just with your ex. get yourself a rottweiler of a lawyer and go to town. dont just take everything your ex does lying down because your doing yourself and your children no favours that way.

Spendless

Would it be an idea to start you both off at 50/50 income your ex from wages + top up benefits + maintainance and you from wages less maintainance and then do an adjustment from that starting point as to what is fair and reasonable. Your ex would prob end up with more than 50% as she has more heads in the house to feed, clothe etc and also because there is a time-span on how long she will receive maintainance.

As to the time-span. I actually liked what another poster said when they said they were given until youngest started secondary + 3 years to do a degree. In your case your ex is already working and starting to train, so a suggestion around those lines of how long it will take for her to finishing training in conjunction with youngest starting yr 7?

Giraffe5021

Spendless - sorry I am not sure I follow your first paragraph.
If this assists there is a total income between us (i.e my salary plus her salary+benefits) of £5700.
Her solicitors proposal is that she will end up with £3450 of this total.
I totally take on board the point about her having more mouths to feed etc but many costs are fixed per household (water rates, council tax) etc and I will be taking the jointly accrued debt + some fixed costs that are joint (for example joint life insurance to benefit the surviving parent).
Just had a huge ruck on the phone - she just says she needs that much money to run the house Including private guitar lessons for kids, private piano lessons etc) and I am left with next to zilch. Bottom line is she doesnt care what circumstance I am left in.
Looks like its mediation on Thursday is final throw of the dice or I will have to go the rottweiler route.
For anyone that has never been through this sort of trauma I cannot begin to tell you how incredibly stressful this is.

tsstss7

JLL wrote: »

I think you will realise as time goes by after the divorce that you will feel that the more you pay you'll realise that your paying for her hair to be done every 6 weeks and your kids are turning up in clothes that don't fit them. Where is your money really going. It will start to p**s you off and make you angry. Why are you paying for sky it is a luxury you can't afford for yourself.

Get yourself a good solictor it will cost you now, but you'll be better off in the long run. If you don't she'll want your pension as well. A good solictor will stop that happening. Your obviously a good dad but she obviously has pound signs in her eyes. Remember you have to have a decent home to so your kids can come and stay overnight and the more nights they stay with you the less maintenance you pay

Speaking from the experience of seeing a high earning friend and her sahd partner go through a divorce under similar circs and spending 20+k between them on solicitors fees you might want to really think about where you would rather spend your money. Their particular merry go round only stopped because relatives staged an intervention and forced them to come to an agreement and in the end neither one really benefited from months of animosity.

If you can come to an agreement though mediation I would urge you to do so - it may well save you a packet.

Spendless

Giraffe5021 wrote: »

To put this into context if we were to run with his suggestion the financial arrangement monthly would be as follows:
Ex:
Income (being wages + benefits): £1450
Maintenance (CSA + SM) : £2,000
Total income: £3,450
Monthly outgoings : £1,460 (this represents all costs including utilities, mortgage, insurances etc but excludes food, spending, petrol, holidays etc)
Available balance to live £1,990
Me:
Income: £4,250
Maintenance: £2,000
Monthly outgoings £1,832 (same basis as set out above for the ex)
Available balance to me: £418
Please note that my monthly outgoings appear disproportionate in relation to ex's as I am remaining to pay life insurances (to benefit her / my children in the event of my death) and taking on the jointly accrued debts as she is unable / incapable of paying her percetage of these off. The trade off is that my Mesher Charge percentage is increased to reflect this which is fine right up to the point where I cant afford to live per month now!!
Bear in mind from this £400 pcm I have to establish (i.e. furnish from scratch and equip a new home being a rented property)
I am total amazed at this proposal and cant believe they can even put this forward as a sensible proposal!!
Plainly I cannot and will not accept this.

Your thoughts and advice would be grately appreciated.
Next mediation meeting is Thursday and mediator wants to work through the monthly outgoings for us both and fully expects to agree this aspect at which point "job done". I wish I shared her optimism!!!

My suggestion is that as a starting point, you suggest that you both get the same amount of available balance. Sorry I've tried to do the figures but I'm getting tired and maths isn't my strong point. Then you start from there where you would both have an available balance of the same amount (ex's made up of wages, + benefits + maintainance) yours made up of wages - maintainace and adjust it according to what is fair. I think your ex will likely get more than a 50/50 split as she is the one with the kids resident, but at least you would start on 50/50 and hopefully come to an arrangement which is acceptable to both of you.

How are the kids with all of this going on?

Giraffe5021

Spendless - thanks for clarifying. Am happy to be flexible as I am sure is evident throughout this post but subject to a nett balance to me that allows me to live!!
tsstss7 - i TOTALLY agree with you. I have been saying this for weeks. Mediation is my first choice by a country mile....BUT..... not if it means I get totally screwed. Going the solicitor route is so dumb!! But may be my only option if her comments of tonight (i.e. she doesnt give a flying f*ck if i have no money) are true. I just cant allow that to happen

Marisco

Giraffe, I'd go for the rottweiler!!! It seems to me, she is not willing to compromise at all!! She seems to think she can carry on with a lifestyle the same as if you were still together. My oh's ex was just like yours, the only difference was the amounts involved. Oh had nowt, and not a very good wage, but it didn't stop her trying. She was awful with access etc as well, and this was 6 years down the line, until she met her now husband!!! I'd never met such a bitter person!

OH ploughed on (like you, often left in tears) and now has a great relationship with his kids (now adults) I think they were well aware what their mother was like, but she was their mother. But don't let her fleece you, what you have offered is more than generous (in fact, I wouldn't even entertain spousal main!!!!) 25% of your earnings will be a very good whack for her, not forgetting CB and any WTC and CTC she gets!! You could always offer to pay for the guitar lessons etc, in lieu of spousal maint.

Sorry to bang on about spousal maint, but to me it just goes against the grain, that a NRP should pay for an adult!!! Just because you lived/were married together, should not give someone the "right" to a meal ticket for years!! Support the kids, no argument, but adults should support themselves.

clearingout

Marisco wrote: »

Giraffe, I'd go for the rottweiler!!! It seems to me, she is not willing to compromise at all!! She seems to think she can carry on with a lifestyle the same as if you were still together. My oh's ex was just like yours, the only difference was the amounts involved. Oh had nowt, and not a very good wage, but it didn't stop her trying. She was awful with access etc as well, and this was 6 years down the line, until she met her now husband!!! I'd never met such a bitter person!

OH ploughed on (like you, often left in tears) and now has a great relationship with his kids (now adults) I think they were well aware what their mother was like, but she was their mother. But don't let her fleece you, what you have offered is more than generous (in fact, I wouldn't even entertain spousal main!!!!) 25% of your earnings will be a very good whack for her, not forgetting CB and any WTC and CTC she gets!! You could always offer to pay for the guitar lessons etc, in lieu of spousal maint.

Sorry to bang on about spousal maint, but to me it just goes against the grain, that a NRP should pay for an adult!!! Just because you lived/were married together, should not give someone the "right" to a meal ticket for years!! Support the kids, no argument, but adults should support themselves.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Many women (and sometimes men) give up fledging careers or don't pursue their career dreams when they marry and have children. Many more put major effort into forwarding their spouses career with the expectation that they will both, eventually, reap the rewards. Supporting yourself is such a subjective thing - it won't necessarily happen overnight, it may take years of training to get there, and even if the person concerned has qualifications and experience whereby they should be able to get a job immediately or up their hours from part to full time, we are in the middle of a recession which makes it all the harder!

I gave up my dreams to support my husband. Or better said, I made his dreams my own. He weasled out of spousal maintenance (and child maintenance if it comes down to it!) but I do believe that it would have been 'fair' that he make a time-limited contribution towards me getting back on my feet. As it stands, with the benefit of time and the wonderful thing called hindsight, I am actually glad that we don't have that tie anymore and whilst my standard of living is very poor (particularly when compared to that of our marriage), I have coped and I continue to cope. But three years ago when this all kicked off, I'd have fought for every last penny 'cos I had no idea what the future held and it is truly terrifying to find yourself in such reduced circumstances.

Bubby

Marisco wrote: »

Giraffe, I'd go for the rottweiler!!! It seems to me, she is not willing to compromise at all!! She seems to think she can carry on with a lifestyle the same as if you were still together. My oh's ex was just like yours, the only difference was the amounts involved. Oh had nowt, and not a very good wage, but it didn't stop her trying. She was awful with access etc as well, and this was 6 years down the line, until she met her now husband!!! I'd never met such a bitter person!

OH ploughed on (like you, often left in tears) and now has a great relationship with his kids (now adults) I think they were well aware what their mother was like, but she was their mother. But don't let her fleece you, what you have offered is more than generous (in fact, I wouldn't even entertain spousal main!!!!) 25% of your earnings will be a very good whack for her, not forgetting CB and any WTC and CTC she gets!! You could always offer to pay for the guitar lessons etc, in lieu of spousal maint.

Sorry to bang on about spousal maint, but to me it just goes against the grain, that a NRP should pay for an adult!!! Just because you lived/were married together, should not give someone the "right" to a meal ticket for years!! Support the kids, no argument, but adults should support themselves.

When you have given up your career to support your spouse and help them up the career ladder then in a marriage the money your spouse earns is often classed as "joint" income, when that spouse decides they no longer want to be in the marriage and you realise that putting your career on hold means you will have to take a minimum wage job whilst they are able to benefit from the help you gave I can completely see the need for spousal maintenance. Until you have been in that situation then it would be very difficult to run down the people that do make a claim for it.

Marisco

Bubby wrote: »

When you have given up your career to support your spouse and help them up the career ladder then in a marriage the money your spouse earns is often classed as "joint" income, when that spouse decides they no longer want to be in the marriage and you realise that putting your career on hold means you will have to take a minimum wage job whilst they are able to benefit from the help you gave I can completely see the need for spousal maintenance. Until you have been in that situation then it would be very difficult to run down the people that do make a claim for it.

I have been in that situation, that is why I don't find it difficult at all!;) When my ex and myself got divorced, I could have gone for the jugular, we had been married for 25 years, had a very good standard of living, and he was due a very good occupational pension. I could have gone for half, and probably would have got it as well, for the reasons mentioned, i.e gave up work etc, etc. The only difference was, my kids were older, but I still wouldn't have gone for it even if they were small. Child maintenance, yes, I'd have gone for maximum there, but not money for myself. I wouldn't want to be beholden to my ex for anything!

I know I'm in a minority of one here, but when you decide to have kids, then sacrifices have to be made. If years down the line it doesn't work out, then tough, you get on with it. When I got married at 19, I didn't think 25 years down the line I'd be struggling on income support of 46 quid a week, but that's life. I certainly wouldn't expect my ex to keep me, kids yes, me no. The op sounds like he is trying to do the right thing, and be fair all round, and good luck to him, but his ex does sound like a money grabbing PWC!!