Placing a child in to foster care. + the history

RAS

Agreed totally, but someone with PTSD can never predict what will trigger a bout. It is only when they have come to pieces and started picking themselves up that they can begin to "realise her part in this,and if she has issues herself then she also needs to help herself too". This may be a bit too soon and raw.

I was set off by the tone of voice used by people I did not even know, a camera man in a public place, all sorts of really really silly things. But it is not possible to work on these triggers in advance; just to learn to recognise when you are responding to history rather than to the current issues.

shegirl

RAS wrote: »

Agreed totally, but someone with PTSD can never predict what will trigger a bout. It is only when they have come to pieces and started picking themselves up that they can begin to "realise her part in this,and if she has issues herself then she also needs to help herself too". This may be a bit too soon and raw.

I was set off by the tone of voice used by people I did not even know, a camera man in a public place, all sorts of really really silly things. But it is not possible to work on these triggers in advance; just to learn to recognise when you are responding to history rather than to the current issues.

Did you realise a connection or think you shouldn't have been reacting that way shortly afterwards though?I'm just wondering how long you can keep going and reacting in a certain manner without thinking something isn't right or making a connection (out of interest).

Mrs_Arcanum

One thing no one seems to have picked up on is the OP asking for help in the past and failing to get it due to her DD playing all sweetness & light. Surely some sort of link should be made when someone asks for help several times yet the child concerned seems perfectly fine.

Whilst we can all be as wise as Solomon after the event no one can really know how bad things have got before the snapping point. So much has to be left out on a post and we only get one side of the story.

Hopefully some sort of relationship counselling can be arranged to rebuild the Mother Daughter bond whilst the daughter is in temporary foster care.

SDG31000

I've been reading this thread and trying to decide if I should comment or not.
I'm approaching this as someone who suffered at the hands of a sibling, in my case my younger brother. It started after my Dad died when I was 11, my brother J was 8 and my DSister was 3. I was physically and mentally abused by J for 8 years and this happened nearly every day. Thankfully the only sexually thing he did was to expose himself to me on a regular basis. I used to dread walking in the door as the name calling, swearing and taunts would begin almost at once. If I defended myself in any way it would turn physical, but then it would if I ignored him, agreed with him and any other response I could think of. I had handfuls of hair pulled out so that my scalp bled, was kicked, punched, pulled to the ground and kicked, threatened with knives and attacked with a serated edged metal scraper. My Mom's response to all this was to ignore it, tell me not to provoke him or quietly tell him to stop. After he attacked me with the metal scraper he got told off for ruining my new top. He wasn't punished for leaving me with scars I still have to this day. All of which he ignored of course. Social Services got involved after a few years and J was assessed and Mom was told that there was nothing wrong with him mentally and that he was doing it as he enjoyed it and he got away with it. I now know that if I had been married to him I could have gotten help and away from him, but as he was a sibling and Mom refused to do anything, I was stuck there. Even if I had been offered the chance to go into foster care I couldn't have left J alone with my Mom and DS. Like the OP's daughter he was an angel at school and in public, but his entire personality changed when he got angry and he was angry for 90% of the time he was at home. To this day I still don't like him, even though he is now the most mild mannered person you would ever meet. I had to make the decision to stop hating him as it was hurting me more than him. Nothing is ever said about those years and as far as the rest of the family is concerned it is like it never happened.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that of course the daughter needs help and the OP should do everything she can to make sure that she and her daughter get the help they need, but please don't make it at the expense of the other children. They have the right to be safe in their own home and not to spend their days waiting for the next attack.
I wish all of you the best of luck and hope that you all have a happy future

shegirl

Mrs_Arcanum wrote: »

One thing no one seems to have picked up on is the OP asking for help in the past and failing to get it due to her DD playing all sweetness & light. Surely some sort of link should be made when someone asks for help several times yet the child concerned seems perfectly fine.

Whilst we can all be as wise as Solomon after the event no one can really know how bad things have got before the snapping point. So much has to be left out on a post and we only get one side of the story.

Hopefully some sort of relationship counselling can be arranged to rebuild the Mother Daughter bond whilst the daughter is in temporary foster care.

I guess the difficulties lie there in personal perception and lack of evidence.Sometimes parents request these things for what is actually normal behaviour but the parents don't have the knowledge/intelligence to realise this or don't know how to deal with it so think it must be something abnormal,so sometimes professionals may wonder if that is the case if they see nothing unusual in the child.Then there is the perception bit,for example,the description of the daughters behaviour is emotive and angry and could be slightly different (not meaning it is OP,just giving examples as to why things may not have been noted) so smashing windows and breaking furniture could,in reality,range from making a small crack in a window and breaking a handle on a wardrobe to throwing things and accidently breaking to full on range,intentional breakage and even that with a sense of pleasure,so the way it is described and the emotional run with it could make the impact seem lesser or greater.And,the biggy is the lack of evidence,this is why the OP needs to push for help and either do as suggested when it's occuring or even try and record it to prove it.

It's also possible that the girl,in her calm mood,has talked alone with the psychs and stated that she gets angry and talks about things she may have done but in a calm manner and one that makes her just appear as a normal hormonal teenager expressing herself where she could well actually be playing it down,she may even see it in a different way.

Errata

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that of course the daughter needs help and the OP should do everything she can to make sure that she and her daughter get the help they need, but please don't make it at the expense of the other children. They have the right to be safe in their own home and not to spend their days waiting for the next attack.

I think you make some valid points, and it's a great pity nothing was done when one of the small children was bitten so hard they need to be stitched up. Perhaps the parents explained the injury away with some fabricated tale- only the OP can say, but it was certainly a missed opportunity to seek help.

Ravenlady_2

When my brother threw a book at me he broke my nose, hospital asked how it happened and just said 'kids huh, who'd have them'
He was a b*****d to me but nothing was ever done about it.

Errata

Ravenlady wrote: »

When my brother threw a book at me he broke my nose, hospital asked how it happened and just said 'kids huh, who'd have them'
He was a b*****d to me but nothing was ever done about it.

Not nice, but a thrown book is very different from a human bite on a toddler (?) requiring stitches.

Ravenlady_2

Errata wrote: »

Not nice, but a thrown book is very different from a human bite on a toddler (?) requiring stitches.

Please explain how, nose smashed across the face and a bite are both deliberate injuries. Both bloody painful and both probably bled like a river.

I dont think you've been on the receiving end of an encyclopaedia before.

shegirl

SDG31000 wrote: »

I've been reading this thread and trying to decide if I should comment or not.
I'm approaching this as someone who suffered at the hands of a sibling, in my case my younger brother. It started after my Dad died when I was 11, my brother J was 8 and my DSister was 3. I was physically and mentally abused by J for 8 years and this happened nearly every day. Thankfully the only sexually thing he did was to expose himself to me on a regular basis. I used to dread walking in the door as the name calling, swearing and taunts would begin almost at once. If I defended myself in any way it would turn physical, but then it would if I ignored him, agreed with him and any other response I could think of. I had handfuls of hair pulled out so that my scalp bled, was kicked, punched, pulled to the ground and kicked, threatened with knives and attacked with a serated edged metal scraper. My Mom's response to all this was to ignore it, tell me not to provoke him or quietly tell him to stop. After he attacked me with the metal scraper he got told off for ruining my new top. He wasn't punished for leaving me with scars I still have to this day. All of which he ignored of course. Social Services got involved after a few years and J was assessed and Mom was told that there was nothing wrong with him mentally and that he was doing it as he enjoyed it and he got away with it. I now know that if I had been married to him I could have gotten help and away from him, but as he was a sibling and Mom refused to do anything, I was stuck there. Even if I had been offered the chance to go into foster care I couldn't have left J alone with my Mom and DS. Like the OP's daughter he was an angel at school and in public, but his entire personality changed when he got angry and he was angry for 90% of the time he was at home. To this day I still don't like him, even though he is now the most mild mannered person you would ever meet. I had to make the decision to stop hating him as it was hurting me more than him. Nothing is ever said about those years and as far as the rest of the family is concerned it is like it never happened.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that of course the daughter needs help and the OP should do everything she can to make sure that she and her daughter get the help they need, but please don't make it at the expense of the other children. They have the right to be safe in their own home and not to spend their days waiting for the next attack.
I wish all of you the best of luck and hope that you all have a happy future

I understand you to a point and shall share a bit of my experience (rather than posting from the point of view of someone studying to be a forensic psych (working with offenders) and as someone who has read countless accounts of serious offenders with issues stemming from childhood).

My sister (18 months older than me) was a violent girl,went for me with a knife when I was 8 years old,attacked me several times,tried to hit my dad across the head with a floor standing brass and glass ashtray and countless other things.However,she was very much a product of our family -we both were different and dealt with things differently,my sister rather extroverted and me naturally living in my own head and a very advanced child who took things as they were,knew they were wrong but made sure she stayed safe and didn't become 'like them' - she hurt me a lot,although there were some moments that were normal and nice with her.We never had a close relationship and never will,same with all of my family there is none between anyone really.She spent time with a psychiatrist and psychologist at my parents request (she was really fighting back against the disgrace that is my family,being like them but also fighting for attention and through hurt -she wanted to be noticed,to feel loved,to know who she was as we all have different dads and to be accepted...she was the most accepted of us in many ways,she could never see that but she was and was also favoured whereas I was 'the freak' who was reading too early and so forth,but they couldn't handle her fighting back) and they saw nothing wrong with her while she was with them.She was put into care by my parents (who to be frank used her as a scapegoat as one of the social workers put it) and my mother shown so much hatred towards her in many ways that she pushed and pushed and made it worse.She shown no interest yet would have her home then make her go away again,she was in and out of care constantly.

In her teens it got worse and once she was 16 she'd be out on the streets drunk and/or naked at 3in the morning with no money,in the city and calling my dad to pick her up and take her back to her carers.Mother used to have a go at him for doing so but dad,for all his faults and his horrible ways (most of which I think were due to my narcisstic,possibly verging on psychopathic,mother) would collect her though and because of that she did feel something for him and would try and talk to him.

Years later and because nobody helped her and her mother pushed her away instead of seeing what was right infront of her and changing things my sister is an alcoholic,heroin addicted woman who self harms,sells herself,commits various crimes and is so desperate for love and confirmation of her feelings that she will go with anyone and put up with anything just to feel accepted.I helped as much as I could but due to having a severely autistic son and for my own sanity cutting the pathetic ties that existed to my 'family' I can do no more for her but have ensured the people who could help her are aware of the full picture.Sadly,I think it's far too late for her and she's just getting worse,seen her in the local paper a few times.

On the point of thinking of the other kids,yes you do need to do that,but you also need to do that without really pushing the daughter away and,very importantly,you need to remember that they will think about her and all this too and that in itself could,one day,cause more issues.For all she done to me I despised my parents for what they had done to her (wish I'd gone but hey ho lol) and for pushing her away -taking my sister away from me-and I hate them even more now for what they have let her become.She may have hurt me and scared me but she is still my sister and I care for her,someone should've helped her.

Now,I'm not saying it's the same and that you OP are what has caused this,but there is a part you will have played that will have had an effect and unfortunately it seems it's a negative one.So please,do what ever needs to be done for you all,but don't do it to punish or push your daughter away because really what she's showing is that she needs you,whether she knows it or not,she really does,you and her family.I could give you a list of reasons why she could be acting the way she is but I don't think it will make you feel any better or be the best way to go.I think you need to think of these yourself and work from there with the present situation in mind too so you have a base to work from.But do remember that all children need to know who they are,that they are loved and that they are part of a family.To push would make it worse.Get talking to the social worker about everything.

In the meantime,for your safety and the safety of your children (including her),if you have her with you,when she kicks off you need to keep calm.I know it can sound impossible,but you need to do it.As someone who has a severe autistic 12 year old who can harm me (I was black and blue this time last week due to extreme stress and me not being able to fix it for him) and someone who has seen this behaviour in others,one thing always stands clear and that is if you show fear and emotion or react in an emotional way then you can make it worse because it can feed it,but she may also like the reaction and enjoy getting it.So deal with it but keep your emotions in check and at the very least appear as if you are in total control,even if you are not,because showing control is another important thing in children feeling safe.Now,if there are certain traits present then it may be seen as a challenge if you take too strong a stance,so if you see it getting worse at the instant you show controlled reactions note it,see if it's just normal challenging in an aggressive manner or if it's more than that,and get help.Let her know you do love her but find the behaviour hard,don't let her think you don't love her because of it.Just make sure you both get the help I think you both need,but please don't hit her and put her in a cold shower (I'm sure you already feel bad about that).

One thing I remember from a very wise social worker friend of mine is that a child who doesn't feel accepted,loved,understood,doesn't know who she is and feels pushed out will often push to be pushed away because that confirms how they feel about themselves.