What to do when a partner/spouse dies.

inneed

Thank you so much, and thank you for your condolences. These were my thoughts too, but Dad is worrying about everything. Mum left a will, which she did herself. It has been witnessed by two people, although I don't know them at all, and the next thing I have to do is find out if it is legal. Everything goes to dad, and it names my two siblings and me as executors. There is such a delay on cremations here at the moment, and we are trying to do all we can to put Dad's mind at rest.

John_Pierpoint

Never "pin" anything to a will.

The will is most probably valid and by leaving everything to the surviving spouse at least protects the assets from the tax man until the second death; though the possibility of care home fees are still something to be considered.
Does anyone have enduring/lasting power of attorney for dad?

Wikipedia is building information about wills:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_will

thorsoak

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Never "pin" anything to a will.

The will is most probably valid and by leaving everything to the surviving spouse at least protects the assets from the tax man until the second death; though the possibility of care home fees are still something to be considered.
Does anyone have enduring/lasting power of attorney for dad?

Wikipedia is building information about wills:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_will

A very good point about not pinning anything to a will. Nor should you use a paperclip - the evidence of a paper clip having been attached to a will has on one occasion, caused a long and costly delay, which meant that solicitors, solicitors' clerks & secretaries all had to swear affidavits that the only thing that had been attached by paperclip to a will was a card printed with the name and address of an exectutor - an attachment made for the best of reasons by a junior articled clerk who thought years ago that it would be useful to have that address to hand! Put anything which relates to a will in the same envelope as the will, but not attached!

inneed

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Never "pin" anything to a will.

The will is most probably valid and by leaving everything to the surviving spouse at least protects the assets from the tax man until the second death; though the possibility of care home fees are still something to be considered.
Does anyone have enduring/lasting power of attorney for dad?

Wikipedia is building information about wills:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_will

Thanks both. I've spoken to a solicitor, and the will is valid. No-one has power of attorney for dad, and I really can't see him agreeing to it. It is something I have been thinking about for some time, and I will raise the subject when things have settled a little.
Good point about not pinning anything to the will - I would never have thought of that, and would probably have used a paper clip to send it to probate!

Mojisola

Amishwannabee wrote: »

Thank you for the will advice - not sure if she has one but will investigate. Still not sure if a divorce of some kind is required though. There are no joint assets and no insurance policies - at least not worth anything much probably just enough to pay for burial. Might have to speak to b - in - law when he next comes to the UK and see what he thinks.

If they have made wills so that anything they leave goes where they want it to go and have nominated who they want to be regarded as their Next of Kin for medical matters, a divorce isn't really needed.

sparkleybitz

hi. sadly, my godmother passed away last week. i am an executor along with her sister in law and niece. i have tried to gain access to her relevant paperwork, but this has been removed from her flat to be dealt with by the sister in law. i have requested to help and oversee. i have been to the flat today (i thought i would give it a clean over and check nothing else has been removed)and the brother has changed the locks as 'it is a personal matter and nothing to do with me'. i was very close to my godmum and was given a key by herself a few months ago as i cleaned and helped out daily and she knew i would need a key when she passed away (she knew she was terminally ill). have had a row with her brother today and requested a key but he has refused.can i change the locks.i believe he is now not to be trusted. its not helped that i am an executor and a beneficiary, of which none of the immediate family are....i had no idea whatsoever i was included in the will.he called me a money grabbing b**** today! my godmum would be disgusted

John_Pierpoint

Very tricky situation.
Have you the executors organised the funeral & "wake" yet?
You might well have been included as an executor, because the deceased was worried about the "money grabbing" attitude of the other two executors and so worried that some clauses of the will would be ignored. You might be included to avoid a dead lock of disagreement between the other two.
How do you know that you are an executor?
Do you know and understand the responsibilities of an executor and trustee - it could be a life sentence for you?
Have you done it before?
Where was the will stored?
Do you have a copy of the will?
What does the will say?
Is it simple and sensible?
Most wills start by saying it is the one and only will and cancels any previous wills.
Then it gives instructions for the funeral?
[My paternal grandmother's will rambled on over half a dozen pages and three codicils and its after effects are still in place 45 years later! In the event the outcome was nothing like her wishes, because she left out a major beneficiary called HMRC] What is the will's structure and who are the beneficiaries?
Will HMRC be first in the queue of beneficiaries?
Are there any assets in the estate that could cause issues or is it just a case of a house and a few savings accounts?

In theory the other two are going to have a problem when they go for probate; they should need to prove that you have agreed to stand down and not act.
I have recently been an executor for two estates and frankly I was not impressed by the probate interview in either case.
In the case of my mother, where my sister and I were joint executors, the probate official tried to get one or other of us to stand down (I wanted my sister on board so that there could be no future recriminations and niggles about the administration of the estate.)
In reality getting in and out of the building through the anti-bomber procedures was far more rigorous than swearing the truth at the interview itself.

John.

PS How strong are you feeling?
I think this could be a character forming experience for you.

After all at least one of the other executors does not understand their legal responsibilities and has no control of their emotions; so that will put them on the back foot in any dispute.

If push comes to shove this could be £20 well spent, though I would try sweet reasonableness and fact gathering first. You never know, you might get an apology.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/probate/caveats.htm

sarymclary

Sparkleybitz - I'm sorry for the loss of your godmother, and hope you have friends and family around you to support you through this difficult time.

John_P above, has given you some great advice. As you are completely unaware of how to deal with this situation, I suggest you need to get some advice. Try to contact the Probate Office, and if you can afford to, obtain some legal advice.

In the meantime, I would be looking to get as much information as possible about being an Executor in England, what responsibilities that imposes, and what you now have to do. There's clearly a lot here for you to sort out, but I wish you the best of luck with dealing with it all, and I hope you also get the space you need to grieve for the loss of someone you loved dearly.

sparkleybitz

hi. some answers!
was allowed to sit in on the the funeral arrangements and wake last thurs (which turned abusive on the brothers part, as soon as he saw my partner there - called him an 'outsider' i have been with him 18 years! - i needed moral support + he helped with godmum.have been told to make my own way to crematorium as it is only 'immediate' family in the limo....wouldn't travel with them anyway after all this..although am sure my godmum would rather i be in that car than her brother. - think that is paid for with the funeral costs... !!!)
i am an executor as i have seen a copy of the will (the original is at solicitors) - brother + sister in law do not know i have a copy
it seems quite simple (!) and is a 2 bed flat and contents plus maybe some savings, isa's + insurances - i would be quite confident it won't hit the inheritance tax status (however i have had no confirmation from the sister in law who has dealt with things for over a week now + since i can't gain access to the flat, i can't tell what has been removed or what financial staus is like)
i have managed to locate the locksmith who changed the locks and he believed he was dealing with an 'executor' as it was the brother (next of kin/not his wife)....he is willing to return on friday to change the locks for me (at cost).......i believe brother has a receipt + intends to claim from estate! i will however, contact the sis in law + request a key again 2moro as i have full intentions to take a full inventory over the weekend, as the wake is being held there on tuesday + other items could 'go missing').
the solicitors office that holds the original will is aware of my problems + has agreed not to release the original will without me being present, as a few days after my godmums passing i went to ask them what i needed to do as an executor + they advised me to contact the sister in law, which i did try to ask what was going on and she said nothing was needed to be done before the funeral.....less than an hour later the solicitors reception phoned me to say 'sis in law' had tried to collect will + stated i was not available + not helping as an executor...they declined until i got there but she stormed out - 2 hours later the brother had changed the locks!!!!
i then did some detective work (!) as it was mentioned that she needed the will for an appt at the bank.i traced the bank + appt time + arrived early. i informed the bank of my intention to sit in on the meeting + showed my copy of the will and death certificate and advised them of my concern. brother caused a scene in bank refusing me to go in meeting + staff declined my attendance (on the demands of the next of kin.....should he be there anyway?!.......).
5 charities will benefit and remaining will be between 7 beneficiaries (myself, my 2 adult children/2 other god children and 1 great niece and nephew-all over 18 yrs old)
as for my self strength...i have cared for my dad for the last 6 years (who went in for a routine knee op + ended up with brain damage + fought care agencies/adult services to keep him at home....therefore i am NOT prepared to take this bullying.) i also manage a charity shop part time + my job is to make as much money as possible out of nothing.......so i am not phased with the flat clearance + max sale of contents!!
sorry this post is so long, any more questions you feel needed, please ask!! financially, due to working p/t and caring for my dad i am reluctant to have to find funds to employ legal help....i struggle enough as it is!
thanks ali

John_Pierpoint

Ah not a first time shrinking violet, so no problems on the toughness front;)

Am I right in thinking that the deceased had only one sibling, his wife is one executor and their daughter is the other executor and the deceased's brother's granddaughter and grandson are the two "family" beneficiaries? Are there any other family members, you have not mentioned, who would have been in-line for an inheritance under the intestacy rules had there been no will?

Was the death of the deceased anticipated or was it sudden and unexpected.

If the death was anticipated - who was on hand to "council" the deceased in anticipation of their departure?

Was there a strong religious element in the life of the deceased?

Without necessarily naming them all, is there a theme to the 5 charities? Are any of them in the top ten of national charities?

Who other than the immediate family and you and you children will be wanting to come to the funeral? Friends, neighbours, ex colleagues, members of local organisations? 6 people, 16 people, 160 people?
As well as being Godmother to you, was the deceased like a grandmother to your children?
Was the deceased married and if so did her (late?) husband's family feature in her life in any way and be expecting to attend the funeral?

Did the other two executors know the contents of the will in advance or has getting nothing as individuals come as a surprise to them?
[There can be a lot of work involved in being an executor, personally I would have put in a clause leaving each executor (say) £1,000 if they were an executor who proved my will.]
Did the beneficiaries know they were going to be beneficiaries?

Some one might have needed to put an announcement in the local paper and should be making a list of people who need to know of the death - Christmas card list? - Numbers programmed into the 'phone? - Computer?

Sorry about all the questions, I am just trying to understand the situation and perhaps have just a little empathy with brother and sister in law, who may be somewhat shocked to discover the plans they had been making to spend a six figure sum have come to nought. [The other executors might as well resign and leave it all to you and just pick over the accounts, with a fine toothed comb, when you come to distribute the estate in a years time?!?].

As the estate is likely to be less than £325K, HMRC will not be very interested in the proceedings and you will not be submitting the complicated IHT400 set of forms.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/inheritancetax/iht-probate-forms/help-iht205-C5.htm

HOWEVER the charities will be very interested, particularly so if they don't realise that there is no IHT to pay anyway;)

If you Google: Charity Probate IHT
You will find lots of information about administering estates, especially from the point of view of charities.

This is a useful link:
http://www.ilmnet.org/ilm/guidance.php

There is a danger of the proceedings degenerating into a lawyers' breakfast (like a dog's breakfast only much more expensive:)).
With 7 plus 5 professionally (?) represented beneficiaries each with their own agenda (possibly "where is the money - I want it now") there has never been more of a situation that needs the executors to be in agreement and prepared to work together.

Presumably the firm of solicitors holding the will are expecting to make a few bob out of administering the estate and selling the flat?
Are they any good?


If you want to get ahead of the other 2 executors, then buy and "read, mark, learn and inwardly digest" the three "Which?" guides:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giving-Inheriting-Which-Essential-Guides/dp/1844901181/ref=pd_sim_b_4
[It is vital that you get the up to date copyright versions - it is very naughty of Amazon to also be offering old stock without a warning]

Just write to the charities and you will be representing the majority of the beneficiaries.

This sounds like a fairly simple estate, where the executors could do a really good job on a DIY basis only buying in legal advice if necessary; but I rather fear that it is going to degenerate into an expensive legal mess of recriminations. It has already got the elements of "a boundary dispute".

Good luck,

John.

PS Yes the wake, memorial and the funeral will be charged to the estate so keep receipts for everything (and were IHT payable then the tax man would be chipping in 40% of the costs).

PPS I once went to a funeral very like the situation you face.
A neighbour approached me and said "When I go I am worried there might be trouble over my will - Can you keep this for me and make sure it is the one that is used; the original is with the solicitor stamped on the front".

The widow had recently been told she had cancer and it would be terminal.

She had reason to worry: I don't know who discovered her death and informed her next of kin (health visitor?) but within hours the house had been ransacked and anything of value removed, including the hibernating tortoise.
[I got a telephone call asking if I had any idea what had happened to the will ".....that was kept on top of the wardrobe in a deed box - we have checked with the bank and its not there".]

Let us put it this way - the will did not distribute the estate according to the laws of intestacy, the recently married God-daughter got almost half - I think she was as surprised as the sister and niece.
It was a somewhat strained funeral with the friends and neighbours & God-daughter left to make their own arrangements for a "wake".