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Nice people thread part 4 - sugar and spice and all things
Comments
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NP, can I ask you some advice?
DH has inherited a ''family heirloom'' (a very old book, not published, written in, things put in it over generations) that he has to go and collect. Its been where he has to collect it from for over a year, because its a long and expensive trip oop North. Sometime ago he was told that the local ''Jewish community'' were going to look at it..and he was thrilled. Then, afterwards he was told that the caretaker (family by marriage) had allowed the ''Jewish community'' (that;s the description, we don't know who they are) to remove pages from it. When I say old, I don't mean decades but rather hundreds of years. Obviously the damage is done, and the leaves taken may well be of wider interest to the community, so...while dh would have preferred to loan the book to the community for safe keeping than have pages cut out (it could have gone on long term loan, as to a museum) and copying, not much can now be done. What he would like- as he imagines the originals are lost to him- is to ask for copies of what has been taken, to collect on the trip he'll make to collect the thing (its so old and precious the family say it cannot be couriered, which is why its been there, if we could have had it delivered we would have done so immediately). Would it be too rude to ask for the originals back? Is there a way to do this tactfully? (dh's father was, I'm told, so distraught on this discovery he made some very inflammatory comparisons) Or be satisfied with the copies? Also, the family member won't give a name or contact details.....would it be ok to make enquiries at the local synagogue?0 -
lostinrates wrote: »NP, can I ask you some advice?
DH has inherited a ''family heirloom'' (a very old book, not published, written in, things put in it over generations) that he has to go and collect. Its been where he has to collect it from for over a year, because its a long and expensive trip oop North. Sometime ago he was told that the local ''Jewish community'' were going to look at it..and he was thrilled. Then, afterwards he was told that the caretaker (family by marriage) had allowed the ''Jewish community'' (that;s the description, we don't know who they are) to remove pages from it. When I say old, I don't mean decades but rather hundreds of years. Obviously the damage is done, and the leaves taken may well be of wider interest to the community, so...while dh would have preferred to loan the book to the community for safe keeping than have pages cut out (it could have gone on long term loan, as to a museum) and copying, not much can now be done. What he would like- as he imagines the originals are lost to him- is to ask for copies of what has been taken, to collect on the trip he'll make to collect the thing (its so old and precious the family say it cannot be couriered, which is why its been there, if we could have had it delivered we would have done so immediately). Would it be too rude to ask for the originals back? Is there a way to do this tactfully? (dh's father was, I'm told, so distraught on this discovery he made some very inflammatory comparisons) Or be satisfied with the copies? Also, the family member won't give a name or contact details.....would it be ok to make enquiries at the local synagogue?
Well, it's your property, not the caretaker's to give away. It seems like vandalism if pages have been literally torn out. Perhaps these are documents that have been folded into the book? Even so, I find it hard to understand just why somebody would think it proper to separate the document in this way, rather than keeping it intact?
Anyway, it's all your property and you are entitled to it. There's nothing to stop you contacting the local community, but be aware that there may be more than one local synagogue. Also, there must be some back-story to what's going on that you haven't fully explained. Why did the caretaker consent to pages being removed (if he did)? Why doesn't he want you to contact the local community? Why doesn't he? Are the pages scandalous? :j:j:j So many questions that you may not want to answer.
One tactful way to resolve this could be to offer the book on loan to the Jewish Museum in London and let them argue about any missing pages with the local community.No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?0 -
Well, it's your property, not the caretaker's to give away. It seems like vandalism if pages have been literally torn out. Perhaps these are documents that have been folded into the book? Even so, I find it hard to understand just why somebody would think it proper to separate the document in this way, rather than keeping it intact?
Anyway, it's all your property and you are entitled to it. There's nothing to stop you contacting the local community, but be aware that there may be more than one local synagogue. Also, there must be some back-story to what's going on that you haven't fully explained. Why did the caretaker consent to pages being removed (if he did)? Why doesn't he want you to contact the local community? Why doesn't he? Are the pages scandalous? :j:j:j So many questions that you may not want to answer.
One tactful way to resolve this could be to offer the book on loan to the Jewish Museum in London and let them argue about any missing pages with the local community.
Thank you, thats an option we hadn't thought about..getting someone else to worry about it!
Its BTW not something I consider in any way ''ours'' but something that is DH's and his family's. I'm nothing to do with it, nor would I want to presume to stake a claim on it. If we had had a child maybe I'd feel it should continue down the line, but we don't. (and I don;'t think the cat-babies would really appreciate it.) After him he decides who should care for it and traditionally its gone to the eldest son in a straight family line....I'm not sure but I think this is the first time that will be changed (DH's dad would have been next, then dh's brother but both are outside the UK). Hopefully we'll have an interested neice or nephew, or second cousins in this line soon. Noone seems terribly productive ATM, and we're all getting on now, most of us in our thirties.:D
Caretaker is family by second marriage and I think had little attachment to the book and held some small historic resentment to family, though relations are good they are not particularly loving, but are warmer than cordial. We are told they did know and approved pages being removed (I understand cut out, so not just folded within, though some of that's almost certain to have been taken too I suppose). Once cut out there is little that can be done in the way of sympathic restoration is my guess, bar rebinding, which seems almost as heinous if its in otherwise good nick. Simply putting the pages back in the order they should be, or copies of them, was the hope, so that it remains a complete record/resource for future generations.
There is almost certainly back story that we do not know though:there can'[t fail to be. And I think that too is probably understandable.
My guess is the simplest, that its a pride thing and the caretaker doesn't want community to know its caused ''disharmony'' or ''upset'' or that it was not their place to either offer or accept the request. It is my understanding that not much value is placed on stuff like ''old books'' and that other bequeathed stuff was given away and the family decided not to make a fuss over spilt milk to reclaim the stuff.
''Inherited stuff'' causes issues. I've seen it in my family and in DH's family, over multiple bereavements. DH's aunt (she really is nice)once telephoned me and asked if I minded things like not getting the canteen or crockery and I said it was nothing at all to do with me, that I had no knowledge of any items nor expectation and if something were offered to ME as opposed to dh because I had nothing whatsoever to do with anything. I said she'd have to speak to dh but that I thought it highly unlikely he'd create a stink about knifes and forks or plates, and the think other than the Book which was ''his'' had actually been handed into the police station in a street violence weapons amnesty :rotfl::rotfl:.
DH has little personal attachment to anything (bar the Book which he loves, and is honoured to care for but would be equally happy if it were cared for by his father, brother or cousin, its viewed by all of them as family legacy not individual property).
We do know which Synagogue is the correct one to approach. so that's something.
I'll suggest the Jewish Museum in London to DH when he gets home later :j:j It would be safest there, and if it is of interest to others outside family it is a shame to secret it away in our house never sharing it.
Thank you so much for giving some direction GDB2222
ps, lj, rather puts into perspective my harmless taking of cheap mass produced books into the bath doesn't it@ Or does it compound my crime? 0 -
lostinrates wrote: »NP, can I ask you some advice?
DH has inherited a ''family heirloom'' (a very old book, not published, written in, things put in it over generations) that he has to go and collect. Its been where he has to collect it from for over a year, because its a long and expensive trip oop North. Sometime ago he was told that the local ''Jewish community'' were going to look at it..and he was thrilled. Then, afterwards he was told that the caretaker (family by marriage) had allowed the ''Jewish community'' (that;s the description, we don't know who they are) to remove pages from it. When I say old, I don't mean decades but rather hundreds of years. Obviously the damage is done, and the leaves taken may well be of wider interest to the community, so...while dh would have preferred to loan the book to the community for safe keeping than have pages cut out (it could have gone on long term loan, as to a museum) and copying, not much can now be done. What he would like- as he imagines the originals are lost to him- is to ask for copies of what has been taken, to collect on the trip he'll make to collect the thing (its so old and precious the family say it cannot be couriered, which is why its been there, if we could have had it delivered we would have done so immediately). Would it be too rude to ask for the originals back? Is there a way to do this tactfully? (dh's father was, I'm told, so distraught on this discovery he made some very inflammatory comparisons) Or be satisfied with the copies? Also, the family member won't give a name or contact details.....would it be ok to make enquiries at the local synagogue?
It is actually a criminal act, what has been done lir. Indeed, this is a topical issue. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15777743
I'd be speaking to the head of the organisation who had the book in their care. I'd be asking why they felt their duty of care towards the safe keeping of the article was breached and why. I'd be asking for them to remedy the situation, and indeed to recover the lost/missing pages and/or provide detailed explanations as to why they cannot get the originals returned.
I forgot to mention that I actually wouldn't be too tactful about it either. I'm feeling that foundinrates dad is in the right.It's getting harder & harder to keep the government in the manner to which they have become accustomed.0 -
lostinrates wrote: »Thank you, thats an option we hadn't thought about..getting someone else to worry about it!
Its BTW not something I consider in any way ''ours'' but something that is DH's and his family's. I'm nothing to do with it, nor would I want to presume to stake a claim on it. If we had had a child maybe I'd feel it should continue down the line, but we don't. (and I don;'t think the cat-babies would really appreciate it.) After him he decides who should care for it and traditionally its gone to the eldest son in a straight family line....I'm not sure but I think this is the first time that will be changed (DH's dad would have been next, then dh's brother but both are outside the UK). Hopefully we'll have an interested neice or nephew, or second cousins in this line soon. Noone seems terribly productive ATM, and we're all getting on now, most of us in our thirties.:D
Caretaker is family by second marriage and I think had little attachment to the book and held some small historic resentment to family, though relations are good they are not particularly loving, but are warmer than cordial. We are told they did know and approved pages being removed (I understand cut out, so not just folded within, though some of that's almost certain to have been taken too I suppose). Once cut out there is little that can be done in the way of sympathic restoration is my guess, bar rebinding, which seems almost as heinous if its in otherwise good nick. Simply putting the pages back in the order they should be, or copies of them, was the hope, so that it remains a complete record/resource for future generations.
There is almost certainly back story that we do not know though:there can'[t fail to be. And I think that too is probably understandable.
My guess is the simplest, that its a pride thing and the caretaker doesn't want community to know its caused ''disharmony'' or ''upset'' or that it was not their place to either offer or accept the request. It is my understanding that not much value is placed on stuff like ''old books'' and that other bequeathed stuff was given away and the family decided not to make a fuss over spilt milk to reclaim the stuff.
''Inherited stuff'' causes issues. I've seen it in my family and in DH's family, over multiple bereavements. DH's aunt (she really is nice)once telephoned me and asked if I minded things like not getting the canteen or crockery and I said it was nothing at all to do with me, that I had no knowledge of any items nor expectation and if something were offered to ME as opposed to dh because I had nothing whatsoever to do with anything. I said she'd have to speak to dh but that I thought it highly unlikely he'd create a stink about knifes and forks or plates, and the think other than the Book which was ''his'' had actually been handed into the police station in a street violence weapons amnesty :rotfl::rotfl:.
DH has little personal attachment to anything (bar the Book which he loves, and is honoured to care for but would be equally happy if it were cared for by his father, brother or cousin, its viewed by all of them as family legacy not individual property).
We do know which Synagogue is the correct one to approach. so that's something.
I'll suggest the Jewish Museum in London to DH when he gets home later :j:j It would be safest there, and if it is of interest to others outside family it is a shame to secret it away in our house never sharing it.
Thank you so much for giving some direction GDB2222
ps, lj, rather puts into perspective my harmless taking of cheap mass produced books into the bath doesn't it@ Or does it compound my crime?
No! How angry I felt about what had happened on behalf of FIR actually underlines the naughtiness of your acts!:A
Plus, you can't take a kindle in the bath can you? I wonder how dangerous that is? I assume the battery etc isn't too powerful.It's getting harder & harder to keep the government in the manner to which they have become accustomed.0 -
lemonjelly wrote: »It is actually a criminal act, what has been done lir. Indeed, this is a topical issue. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-15777743
I'd be speaking to the head of the organisation who had the book in their care. I'd be asking why they felt their duty of care towards the safe keeping of the article was breached and why. I'd be asking for them to remedy the situation, and indeed to recover the lost/missing pages and/or provide detailed explanations as to why they cannot get the originals returned.
I forgot to mention that I actually wouldn't be too tactful about it either. I'm feeling that foundinrates dad is in the right.
Caretaker is an elderly family member now with failing health. Berating them is not going to do any good for anyone and they are certainly incapable of rectifying anything and totally unwilling. What's done is very sadly done. Tears have been shed (by FIR and his father at least). and as we can't magic a change FIR now needs to decide what to do AND make time to do it, which will also be difficult.
Off to read link. edit: read link, dh's father also did the same with dh's mother's stuff (at very short notice we managed to collect some of it, but much had already been given away or sold ). In fact, IMO his crime is more direct and I won't go into it here, but there would be a very strong case there,...but money gained would break something more valuable I think.
DH nad I have seen it with his family and mine, and have concluded what we have is better earned and bought my us from now on.0 -
There are no heirlooms in my family. The closest to one would be a clock we bought mum one birthday 10 years ago, that you can pick up on ebay for about £10 without any trouble.0
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lemonjelly wrote: »I wonder how dangerous that is? I assume the battery etc isn't too powerful.
Er, not dangerous at all, and if you get one of those freezer bags, you don't even risk breaking to kindle.“The ideas of debtor and creditor as to what constitutes a good time never coincide.”
― P.G. Wodehouse, Love Among the Chickens0 -
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Mrs. Wheezy has expressed the desire to receive a Kindle, so that's X-mas pressie sorted. Will get the Kindle wi-fi, don't need the 3G version.
Have a good weekend, nice peeps :wave:0
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