Narcisism!

poet123

If you don't know you have Dementia is it any less real?

This brings to mind a friend whose father was behaving very strangely with, if I think about it, many NPD flags....he was on a pysch ward when he died...... of a brain tumour.

Vicky123

lostinrates wrote: »

I annoyingly lost a post full of references and a really clear to me analogy!


I'm going to edit one back in but also put this one in while here

http://www.livescience.com/37684-narcissistic-personality-disorder-brain-structure.html


Edit....ok, this was the one I wanted really...http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201201/lack-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait


This for me is the difference from what you are saying and what poet is saying. I feel you are describing what a 'normal' person would feel about doing the hurtful, nasty things described....how they would feel about the pain inflicted. Where as poet seems to me to be describing more what the quotes from the NPD people are saying. That they just don't think of the emotions of others. One saying 'do you think of the emotions of a hammer?' Or something because to them people are a tool, and that while intellectually they know peoe have emotions and so if they think about it they can intellectualise things must hurt I just don't think they do think about it, any more than we wonder about the impact of force on the structural integrity on a hammer. We use the hammer, the NPD person uses people. The job, whatever it is, completed, the tool and its care are out of mind to them.

I do understand what Poet is saying, so thank you for explaining but the posts were already clear to me, we just disagree on whether there is any intent to hurt or not and of course whether people are being labelled unfairly.
Somewhere else someone has suggested that posters themselves may be Narcissists and could now think their victims are the ones with the NPD, the main problem with that is who is saying jump? It's not a discussion about domestic arguments, he said/she said it's really about a specific personality disorder which has certain hallmarks, so how someone could be considered to have it when they demand nothing of anyone is strange.
Personally I find the label to be largely irrelevant because if a person is an abuser then run, if the person is a narcissist then run, but it's highly likely that this condition is far more prevalent than is realized but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over mislabeling someone who is obviously abusive enough to be even considered narcissistic by those who know them best.

poet123

Vicky123 wrote: »

I do understand what Poet is saying, so thank you for explaining but the posts were already clear to me, we just disagree on whether there is any intent to hurt or not and of course whether people are being labelled unfairly.
Somewhere else someone has suggested that posters themselves may be Narcissists and could now think their victims are the ones with the NPD, the main problem with that is who is saying jump? It's not a discussion about domestic arguments, he said/she said it's really about a specific personality disorder which has certain hallmarks, so how someone could be considered to have it when they demand nothing of anyone is strange.
Personally I find the label to be largely irrelevant because if a person is an abuser then run, if the person is a narcissist then run, but it's highly likely that this condition is far more prevalent than is realized but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over mislabeling someone who is obviously abusive enough to be even considered narcissistic by those who know them best.

I am not saying there is no intent to hurt, those who are qualified to do so say that.

There is the dichomotomy, the labelling seems important (to some) even if the specifics do not fit.

And if the abuse stems from MH issues what then? Should it be dealt with differently? Substitute the NPD label for Dementia ( presenting with the same behaviours) and think about that.

lostinrates

Vicky123 wrote: »

I do understand what Poet is saying, so thank you for explaining but the posts were already clear to me, we just disagree on whether there is any intent to hurt or not and of course whether people are being labelled unfairly.
Somewhere else someone has suggested that posters themselves may be Narcissists and could now think their victims are the ones with the NPD, the main problem with that is who is saying jump? It's not a discussion about domestic arguments, he said/she said it's really about a specific personality disorder which has certain hallmarks, so how someone could be considered to have it when they demand nothing of anyone is strange.
Personally I find the label to be largely irrelevant because if a person is an abuser then run, if the person is a narcissist then run, but it's highly likely that this condition is far more prevalent than is realized but I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over mislabeling someone who is obviously abusive enough to be even considered narcissistic by those who know them best.

I don't know who the first person to point a finger was. I did suggest early in the thread (way before this) that perhaps we had to be careful of irony....and this was dismissed, kindly. . I certainly have not pointed the finger at anyone, and I believe I have avoided thanking the posts which I feel have, from both 'sides' (and both sides did IMO during this discussion do so) strayed into that territory.

I agree with you, fwiw, that if you are with an abuser do not be. Cut off family if you have to. But I think in some circumstances this advice is not possible. If you are a parent of an NPD child. If you are trying to get that child help. Just saying smile sweetly and run away to me, is not helpful. Especially if there IS help out there.

In fact , advice that stops people getting real life help could be opposite of helpful. Especially if there is a real, treatable problem and someone here is in a position to activate that.

I would lose sleep over mislabeling someone. I think its hurtful and potentially damaging, as explained, if not to them then perhaps to oneself. Whilst I am happy to agree to disagree on this, I am not to be shouted down over it or my experience or interpretation of my experiences considered 'lesser' because my conclusions are less concrete or the same as others on this thread.

I

lostinrates

I think the other point is one cannot run away from ones self.


A quick google suggests those with diagnosed NPD have NPD in their children at the rate of 68per cent. So if our parents have it, its more likely we do than we don't suffer too.

I'm doing a quick google while my cous cous is on, so will edit in to this.
http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/cause-of-narcissistic-personality-disorder.html


http://thenarcissisticlife.com/is-narcissism-genetic/

That has the same stats, and study, presented a little better, but with very little hope for outcome of NPD.

Vicky123

poet123 wrote: »

I am not saying there is no intent to hurt, those who are qualified to do so say that.

There is the dichomotomy, the labelling seems important (to some) even if the specifics do not fit.

And if the abuse stems from MH issues what then? Should it be dealt with differently? Substitute the NPD label for Dementia ( presenting with the same behaviours) and think about that.

But, why substitute NPD for Dementia? The discussion is Narcissism, because there are some similar behaviours from one condition to another and the emphasis has to be "some" why would that make a difference? We have already had the autism discussion on this thread and clearly one wouldn't deal with it the same way, this applies to any different conditions.
Discussion is good but if we keep splitting hairs in order to be right then it's just a waste of time and not particularly productive, so again I am happy to agree to disagree.

missprice

lostinrates wrote: »

I agree with you, fwiw, that if you are with an abuser do not be. Cut off family if you have to. But I think in some circumstances this advice is not possible. If you are a parent of an NPD child. If you are trying to get that child help. Just saying smile sweetly and run away to me, is not helpful. Especially if there IS help out there.

In fact , advice that stops people getting real life help could be opposite of helpful. Especially if there is a real, treatable problem and someone here is in a position to activate that.

I would lose sleep over mislabeling someone.

I

Parents of PD child, well that depends on the age of the child, granted a parent cannot cut contact with an under 18 or thereabouts. But older than that, if they are making your life awful, then yes cut contact. Given the usual odds of life the parent will die before child, so what would child do then (assuming child grown up)

If I was to mislabel a nasty bully as NPD i would sleep soundly thanks. I have gotten out of all the toxic family obligations I used to have and am happier for it.
I now just miss the idea of a lovely extended family unit, not the reality.

Assuming its a real treatable problem, how do you get the affected person any help and get them to take the help. Especially now as MH is losing funding hand over fist.

Vicky123

lostinrates wrote: »

I don't know who the first person to point a finger was. I did suggest early in the thread (way before this) that perhaps we had to be careful of irony....and this was dismissed, kindly. . I certainly have not pointed the finger at anyone, and I believe I have avoided thanking the posts which I feel have, from both 'sides' (and both sides did IMO during this discussion do so) strayed into that territory.

I agree with you, fwiw, that if you are with an abuser do not be. Cut off family if you have to. But I think in some circumstances this advice is not possible. If you are a parent of an NPD child. If you are trying to get that child help. Just saying smile sweetly and run away to me, is not helpful. Especially if there IS help out there.

In fact , advice that stops people getting real life help could be opposite of helpful. Especially if there is a real, treatable problem and someone here is in a position to activate that.

I would lose sleep over mislabeling someone. I think its hurtful and potentially damaging, as explained, if not to them then perhaps to oneself. Whilst I am happy to agree to disagree on this, I am not to be shouted down over it or my experience or interpretation of my experiences considered 'lesser' because my conclusions are less concrete or the same as others on this thread.

I

Yes, absolutely, if it were a child then running away wouldn't be very helpful but I kind of assumed it was obvious I meant adults.
Is someone shouting you down? I hope you don't think I am as it isn't my intention, ultimately everyone's point is valid as it relates to their own experiences. I wouldn't lose sleep over mislabeling relates to my opinion of emotional abusers/narcissists it doesn't have to be everyone's opinion but rest assured I wouldn't be labeling the grumpy old man next door who keeps parking on my driveway, it would be someone with a grandiose, entitled, controlling, lying, manipulative, egotistical, threatening, intimidating and aggressive personality who might just be unpleasant.

poet123

Vicky123 wrote: »

But, why substitute NPD for Dementia? The discussion is Narcissism, because there are some similar behaviours from one condition to another and the emphasis has to be "some" why would that make a difference? We have already had the autism discussion on this thread and clearly one wouldn't deal with it the same way, this applies to any different conditions.
Discussion is good but if we keep splitting hairs in order to be right then it's just a waste of time and not particularly productive, so again I am happy to agree to disagree.

The relevance of subbing Dementia for NPD is that if it is a recognised MH with physical indicators ( as shown by the brain scan links) then surely most of us would react differently than to someone who is simply bolshy?

Splitting hairs? Seems substantive and relevant to me, so I guess we will agree to disagree.

lostinrates

missprice wrote: »

Assuming its a real treatable problem, how do you get the affected person any help and get them to take the help. Especially now as MH is losing funding hand over fist.

If I decide to get treatment it will be privately. As I do for some of my physical health. Funding is a huge issue for huge swathes of the country, but a lot of us could get help privately by prioritising. A lot of people do already get counselling or other health help privately. Where that's not possible, I think if I had a child I'd be doing everything I could.

I have at times walked away from the diffucult people in my life. One I remain out of contact with. For all the hurt and damage that person caused I have to admit I still miss them a times with a searing pain. The other one I am in touch with. I have very conflicting emotions of tremendous love, desperate regret, deep sadness and frustration, anger, even resentment towards them and situations. The rewriting of history they indulge in in particular I find difficult but I have for d ways to deal with it, helped tremendously by my husband whose even temper is remarkable. I don't want to cut them out of my life. I feel a 'responsibility' to them tha I wish I didn't but I do. And I also see them as human victims ( both of them) not pure evil people put to get me, just that I was there IYSWIM.

What I do know is that I on't want those traits to further develop in me. If there is a two in three chance they have or will then what the dickens does one do?