Narcisism!

KxMx

Person_one wrote: »

You assume I've never had dealings with deeply unpleasant and selfish people, and that I don't have any in my family. That's just an assumption though.

I don't assume that the people posting here are the 'bad guys', but its certainly true that different parties can have completely opposing opinions on the exact same situation and both consider themselves to be completely right and the other completely wrong. It happens all the time. Relationships are rarely so black and white as one person being the hero and another the villain.

I don't really understand your last paragraph I'm afraid.

The behaviour towards me by the person I think has N tendencies was wrong, but I was also in the wrong because I had realised this and done nothing about it, and let resentment grow which is never any good. I was worried about hurting that person's feelings so I did nothing. But giving in/agreeing all the time was making me very unhappy. When ever they were (rarely) challenged I would be guilt tripped or blackmailed into dropping it. The best thing to do was put myself first and tackle it but I didn't see that for some time. To harden my heart somewhat and ignore the emotional blackmail. To realise they may be hurt initially but would soon be over it which was the case and for the sake of our relationship it needed to be done. In my situation at the time I would have labelled it 100% their fault but I see it quite differently now.

As for my personality, well I can hold a grudge with the best of them (even after there has been apologies), I never forget someone who treats me badly, I can be far too practical and logical about life, I find it hard asking for help, I could go on here with my own character assassination See I would rather present flaws than assets!

There is another relative I am not so close to as the one with N tendencies, well I decided long ago it was best not to seek out an explanation for how he is. Because I already know he lives in a complete fantasy world and sees life in a very different light to the majority. For example there was one incident with 4 people in the room including him and me, the other 2 would (and have done so) describe what happened and he has just blanked it out totally and refuses to acknowledge what happened (I hope through shame but honestly knowing him as I do...) I do not wish to go into details but anyone who didn't find that a "black and white" situation would make me very angry. With him there would be no purpose to finding a "label". But with the other relative there was because our relationship was going downhill and I didn't want that.

Perhaps that is another angle to look at, when you are having daily/ frequent contact with someone abusive maybe looking for an explanation is a way of saving sanity for the abused. But as andygb said there is also the danger of justifying behaviour which in any other context would be considered inexcusable and doing nothing about it.

Vicky123

poet123 wrote: »

It is not quite that simple. A person with true NPD sees only their needs as important, and is blinkered about how those needs are met., they only care that they are. They do not see others as having needs, feelings etc. Other people are voids to them.

I would disagree on this, a person with true NPD does all you say but they are very well aware that other people have needs, they just don't care! My original post that you've lifted is in the context of "intent" those with NPD intend to hurt in order to get what they want, those with autism do not intend to hurt, but in any case they are not oblivious to others having needs as in being the same as those who genuinely lack theory of mind and empathy, they really do not know others have needs.
Anyone who has suffered at the hands of a narcissist will know absolutely that the pain was intended, they will be in no doubt, what they struggle with is "why"?

poet123

Vicky123 wrote: »

I would disagree on this, a person with true NPD does all you say but they are very well aware that other people have needs, they just don't care! My original post that you've lifted is in the context of "intent" those with NPD intend to hurt in order to get what they want, those with autism do not intend to hurt, but in any case they are not oblivious to others having needs as in being the same as those who genuinely lack theory of mind and empathy, they really do not know others have needs.
Anyone who has suffered at the hands of a narcissist will know absolutely that the pain was intended, they will be in no doubt, what they struggle with is "why"?

Then they do not absolutely fit the profile, which is why there have been posts querying the willy nilly appending of the label.

Vicky123

determined_new_ms wrote: »

Thank you for your comment. Actually has made me feel quite emotional. In the main yes, but sometimes no. Sometimes she is very hard/cold to her when her mood is low. I have witnessed her shouting at her a couple of times. Every time afterwards she is full of remorse but she is a slave to her emotions. Yesterday her behaviour in the cafe was really unacceptable and there is a real possibility my friend will call SS and tell them what happened. Maybe they will take someone else seriously.

I have tried speaking to her social worker but when they meet with her she tells them everything is fine and they believe it. I have suggested several times I think she has a bpd but they think I am the one who is unwell and I should get my MH assessed (have actually said that to my dd). My dd went to the gp on Friday to tell them about being depressed and not coping. I am thinking of making an appt with the gp to tell them about my concerns, her history, what makes me believe what I do. Maybe they will refer her to the mental health team and she can start to get some help.

I believe if she can get the right help she will be ok.

Getting the right help can be difficult, the cuts are really obvious in Mental Health now, it may be an assessment by a mental health nurse for 30 mins or so, leaflets and info on medication.
There might be some charities in your area though who run support groups, could be worth looking on line and seeing what's out there, you could also contact carer groups for advice that might help you cope, try phoning MIND, knock on as many doors as possible and eventually you hopefully come across something to useful. Doesn't the social worker have any suggestions at all?

missprice

Vicky123 wrote: »

Try not to concern yourself too much about whether particular people believe you/others and realise that someone wishing they could hear the other side is faintly ridiculous as it would apply to every single thread, not just this one, it's put out there to throw doubt around, on a forum like this there is a choice to take something at face value or just move on. Already we have someone posting that Narcissism is not a diagnosis it's a behaviour. So autism isn't a diagnosis then as it's a set of behaviours, try running that one past all the paediatricians up and down the country.
It would be nice if this thread continued as a source of support for those who are struggling to live a normal life in the shadow of narcissism, or if the doubters prefer extreme emotional abuse as most people will accept that someone knows when they are being emotionally abused and then they will have nothing to keep chiming in about.
Everyone has a right to be respected and feel safe in their own home, don't lose sight of that by trying to jump through higher and higher hoops, just because some faceless person on line thinks they might just be unpleasant.

Well if the 'other' side is a narcisist they believe they have done no wrong and are unlikely to give their side and assuming one of them did it would be a fabrication.

Am still struggling with if labelled with PD or not how would anyone's behavior be different.
If someone is just plain nasty no one would find excuses for them, they would use tactics well established to work, or possibly ignore that person whenever possible.
If someone is a bully, again established practises will help with dealing with bully.

If someone either is or shows many signs of NPD again tactics can be put in place.
I mean this is the internet, anyone can say oh thank you kind people, I have found a way of dealing with my N mother. Doesn't mean its true, they may very well be lying through their teeth.
On the other hand it could be true.

Either way none if us have to jump through any hoops whatever height they may be to justify our actions with N or possibly N people.
The advice can be taken and used or not.
Many of these faceless people on here may well read this and never have the courage to even try the tactics because the N person has ground them almost to dust.
Many may well read this and take extreme measures to cut N person out. Its up to whoever needs this info to use as they see fit.
Not up to us to judge if when or how well they do that.
Certainly not up to us if people label the problem even without a degree or any training.

Vicky123

poet123 wrote: »

Then they do not absolutely fit the profile, which is why there have been posts querying the willy nilly appending of the label.

Why do you think Narcissists do not know others have feelings and therefore hurt is unintended? Have you heard of the silent treatment? This is a common behaviour for Narcissists, hardly going to happen if you don't intend to punish, gaslighting is very obviously intentional, if someone sets out to alter someone else's perception then intent is clear, not to be confused with disregard because obviously a narcissist has no concern that someone else is hurting but they very definitely know they are. Cognitive empathy or emotional empathy?
It may well be that we are hearing more about Narcissism than we ever did before but then the same is true of emotional abuse generally which is now as unaccepted [in theory] as physical abuse, this is a good thing people need to bring these issues out in to the open, by shining a light on unacceptable behaviour people can be free of suffering, as it should be.

lostinrates

missprice wrote: »

Well if the 'other' side is a narcisist they believe they have done no wrong and are unlikely to give their side and assuming one of them did it would be a fabrication.

Am still struggling with if labelled with PD or not how would anyone's behavior be different.
If someone is just plain nasty no one would find excuses for them, they would use tactics well established to work, or possibly ignore that person whenever possible.
If someone is a bully, again established practises will help with dealing with bully.

If someone either is or shows many signs of NPD again tactics can be put in place.
I mean this is the internet, anyone can say oh thank you kind people, I have found a way of dealing with my N mother. Doesn't mean its true, they may very well be lying through their teeth.
On the other hand it could be true.

Either way none if us have to jump through any hoops whatever height they may be to justify our actions with N or possibly N people.
The advice can be taken and used or not.
Many of these faceless people on here may well read this and never have the courage to even try the tactics because the N person has ground them almost to dust.
Many may well read this and take extreme measures to cut N person out. Its up to whoever needs this info to use as they see fit.
Not up to us to judge if when or how well they do that.
Certainly not up to us if people label the problem even without a degree or any training.

This wasn't really my gripe exactly, but lets put it this way. A lot has been said since this discussion started now about 'irony' and people pointing at others suggesting maybe they have problems.

Lets say that's true (and I am most certainly NOT, I repeat NOT accusing any body here of having any personality disorder, I am talking ATM in the theoretical) and someone here is suffering NPD, and not realising it and someone in their life they are accusing of the same is their victim.

In fact, to make this less ambiguous and further prevent accusations of me pointing the finger at anyone lets for argument sake say i have NPD and the person I am most concerned about in my life is my key victim. I cannot recognise it in myself (that's been established earlier.....it was said that if one recognises traits in self its less likely (or not possible ...) ) and I see my victim as being totally wrong and against me or whatever.

Here I am thinking I have found the answer to what it sounds like the problem it is and receiving validation of support from people hearing a one sided view (as its absolutely right, all things in this medium are) and the 'victim' is being labelled in my mind as NPD, justifying my treatment of them to myself, further 'endangering them' and failing to get either them or me help. My concern is that with a simple thread of reassurance and total unquestioned support it might actually cause more harm in some situations, because people who might not be totally innocent put upon victims ( as it seems many NPD people are good at appearing) are getting what they most desire, total validation from a group of people, reinforcing their idea that their victim is infact their oppressor.

As I said earIre, I think its statistically likely some here/ the people they write about are NPD. I also think its probably statistically likely some people are mistaken.

as regards the lies issue, There is always a thin line one treads on forums between having to take everything at total face value and also remembering that it might all be tosh concurrently. In most cases I tend to think its somewhere between the two,...an interpretation of things from one biased perspective....regardless of the subject.

Dunroamin

Vicky123 wrote: »

Why do you think Narcissists do not know others have feelings and therefore hurt is unintended? Have you heard of the silent treatment? This is a common behaviour for Narcissists, hardly going to happen if you don't intend to punish, gaslighting is very obviously intentional, if someone sets out to alter someone else's perception then intent is clear, not to be confused with disregard because obviously a narcissist has no concern that someone else is hurting but they very definitely know they are. Cognitive empathy or emotional empathy?
It may well be that we are hearing more about Narcissism than we ever did before but then the same is true of emotional abuse generally which is now as unaccepted [in theory] as physical abuse, this is a good thing people need to bring these issues out in to the open, by shining a light on unacceptable behaviour people can be free of suffering, as it should be.

In which world would that be the case?

lostinrates

Vicky123 wrote: »

Why do you think Narcissists do not know others have feelings and therefore hurt is unintended? Have you heard of the silent treatment? This is a common behaviour for Narcissists, hardly going to happen if you don't intend to punish, gaslighting is very obviously intentional, if someone sets out to alter someone else's perception then intent is clear, not to be confused with disregard because obviously a narcissist has no concern that someone else is hurting but they very definitely know they are. Cognitive empathy or emotional empathy?
It may well be that we are hearing more about Narcissism than we ever did before but then the same is true of emotional abuse generally which is now as unaccepted [in theory] as physical abuse, this is a good thing people need to bring these issues out in to the open, by shining a light on unacceptable behaviour people can be free of suffering, as it should be.

I annoyingly lost a post full of references and a really clear to me analogy!


I'm going to edit one back in but also put this one in while here

http://www.livescience.com/37684-narcissistic-personality-disorder-brain-structure.html


Edit....ok, this was the one I wanted really...http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201201/lack-empathy-the-most-telling-narcissistic-trait


This for me is the difference from what you are saying and what poet is saying. I feel you are describing what a 'normal' person would feel about doing the hurtful, nasty things described....how they would feel about the pain inflicted. Where as poet seems to me to be describing more what the quotes from the NPD people are saying. That they just don't think of the emotions of others. One saying 'do you think of the emotions of a hammer?' Or something because to them people are a tool, and that while intellectually they know peoe have emotions and so if they think about it they can intellectualise things must hurt I just don't think they do think about it, any more than we wonder about the impact of force on the structural integrity on a hammer. We use the hammer, the NPD person uses people. The job, whatever it is, completed, the tool and its care are out of mind to them.

missprice

lostinrates wrote: »

This wasn't really my gripe exactly, but lets put it this way. A lot has been said since this discussion started now about 'irony' and people pointing at others suggesting maybe they have problems.

Lets say that's true (and I am most certainly NOT, I repeat NOT accusing any body here of having any personality disorder, I am talking ATM in the theoretical) and someone here is suffering NPD, and not realising it and someone in their life they are accusing of the same is their victim.

In fact, to make this less ambiguous and further prevent accusations of me pointing the finger at anyone lets for argument sake say i have NPD and the person I am most concerned about in my life is my key victim. I cannot recognise it in myself (that's been established earlier.....it was said that if one recognises traits in self its less likely (or not possible ...) ) and I see my victim as being totally wrong and against me or whatever.

Here I am thinking I have found the answer to what it sounds like the problem it is and receiving validation of support from people hearing a one sided view (as its absolutely right, all things in this medium are) and the 'victim' is being labelled in my mind as NPD, justifying my treatment of them to myself, further 'endangering them' and failing to get either them or me help.

.

But if you were in fact NPD, and you searched and found stuff that to you means your victim is the real NPD, you would either not care cos your the NPD and you have no feelings for the victim, or you would use the tactics given here.
Those tactics include but are not limited to
Broken record, saying same thing whenever something hurtful is said, hardly dangerous to you or victim and in fact cuts down on contact as you are boring the pants off victim.
Smile sweetly while going your own way, again not dangerous in the slightest and quite a calm way of doing things, not the usual drama that evolves around NPD.
Go no contact, again far from dangerous in fact safest way to deal with NPD.

None of these options is trying to find help, but further back in this thread is stated (I think) there is no help for PD.