Narcisism!

Dunroamin

Vicky123 wrote: »

Equally, it would be really wrong to label narcissists as being simply unpleasant, most especially to those who are suffering narcissistic abuse and know fine and well this is more than unpleasant and are just looking to discuss coping strategies or advice generally from others who have been through the same.
It's kind of indicative of how little is understood about emotional abuse, if someone came on here talking about physical abuse no one would suggest it was just rough play that got out of hand.

I don't think anyone is downplaying emotional abuse by saying that the perpetrator isn't necessarily mentally ill, rather the opposite. After all most people don't think that those who abuse physically have some kind of MHI, rather that they are just bad/evil/etc.

lostinrates

Person_one wrote: »

Well no, because the words narcissism and sadism aren't actually 'diagnoses' or the names of illnesses. They just describe behaviour.

Person one, or anyone, these are behaviours, I get the semantic difference, Buit the personality disorder, that would be a mental health issue would it?

If not what is it? Just a personality type? Its confusing if its not a mental health issue (NPD rather than narcism as an occasional behaviour which I think is something everyone probably manifests to a degree at times) when its discussed along side them!

lostinrates

Dunroamin wrote: »

I don't think anyone is downplaying emotional abuse by saying that the perpetrator isn't necessarily mentally ill, rather the opposite. After all most people don't think that those who abuse physically have some kind of MHI, rather that they are just bad/evil/etc.

I don't know I agree with the latter (personally) . Not that most people don't feel that way just that I am not sure I do. I think that to behave in that way in a western culture perhaps according to our criteria of normal behaviour one would have to be outside that behaviour and thus 'not entirely well'. But I don't know. I vacillate on this constantly. Its something I have thought about a lot over the years, whether people are I'll when they abuse or whether if they are or not it absolves responsibility. My answer to my self is not always the same!

Dunroamin

lostinrates wrote: »

I don't know I agree with the latter (personally) . Not that most people don't feel that way just that I am not sure I do. I think that to behave in that way in a western culture perhaps according to our criteria of normal behaviour one would have to be outside that behaviour and thus 'not entirely well'. But I don't know. I vacillate on this constantly. Its something I have thought about a lot over the years, whether people are I'll when they abuse or whether if they are or not it absolves responsibility. My answer to my self is not always the same!

Given the number of people (usually men) who perpetrate some kind of physical domestic abuse, I find it difficult to view this as a symptom of mental illness. Before attitudes changed and it was even more common, you'd probably have had to say that half of the population was mentally ill.

lostinrates

Dunroamin wrote: »

Given the number of people (usually men) who perpetrate some kind of physical domestic abuse, I find it difficult to view this as a symptom of mental illness. Before attitudes changed and it was even more common, you'd probably have had to say that half of the population was mentally ill.

Yes, I see (and don't agree not disagree:o) what you say.

I guess in my mind that's where the sort of scales of behaviour idea for many things is useful.

For example, I have never met before Mse (but have through Mse) any one who describes them selfs as aspergers or 'on the spectrum'. Frankly the idea shocked me at first. I suppose I sort of think (dangerously flowery analogy) of charactistics as being something we all have all of in varying degrees at varying times of our lives or in reaponce to varying stimuli. For example, its well known two children in the same family respond to 'the same' environment differently partly because its not exactly the same environment for both. (And they are different people to start with) but reverse the environment each experienced in that unit perhaps the profiles we mature with would be reversed. So I suppose this is quite similar really, to the idea of a spectrum and its surprising it shocked me at first.

Incidentally, having met and grown fond of an MSE 'aspie' I'm not sure I would have picked up on it if I hadn't known but I'm glad I knew things like not to greet with a hug etc, because it made them more comfortable.

(I'm not comparing NPD to aspergers btw, just the idea of a spectrum of behaviour, and coping strategies)


I think from my point of view a good progression of help might be a realistic guide of what to do if you think this might be relevant in your life.

For example , some have mentioned the Internet is the only source of support. Does it have to be? Is it worth seeing a professional for some if they have been made to feel like victims their entire life? I think it was the link Andy posted (but not sure) that suggested that professionals use the narcissism in therapy to help recovery but seemed to suggest it not be mentioned to the patient. That sort of worries me, if I go to someone for help and I think I might have a problem, I want to be told...yeah, you know what you are righ...you have to watch this. One of the things in one of those links last night that spoke to me (sorry ...me, me, me again...) was the difficulty of coping with narcism when people become unwell. well, maybe that's why I'm struggling so much coming to terms with chronic Ill health and its not the health really at all? If so then I'd like help with that, not to sit around soothing my ego!


Edit, re attidues changing....I'm actually wondering if that's relevant. Is what we decree to be mentally healthy partly what is social norm, and those change? I don't know, this is an area outside much of my knowledge tbh. Just, we don't allow child marriage any more, but used to in royal circles anyway, for example, then like domestic abuse, attitudes changed. Similar.y, attitudes have changed about sexuality, and we now recognise (mostly) difference is ok not criminal or 'ill'.

andygb

Person_one wrote: »

Without wishing to minimise your experiences, I do sometimes wonder what it would be like if we had the other side of some of these stories.

I had already come to the conclusion that you were assuming that the people posting on this thread were quite possibly the "bad guys", and their accounts were not to be trusted.
I wish that you and others who share your opinions could share our experiences and meet the people we are referring to.
If you are going to be sceptical/dismissive about every person who posts on this subject (at least the ones who say that they THINK one of their friends/relations has NPD), then what is the point of you posting?
If on the other hand (as I genuinely wished that you would) you were to offer an opinion based on the information supplied by various people (which you say that you are reluctant to do, because you cannot diagnose), then I, and I am sure others, would appreciate that.:)

determined_new_ms

Sorry only read the first page as had to post. A narcissist is a personality disorder - Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there are currently 12. I believe my dd has a borderline personality disorder. But she will not get treatment and nobody will listen to me.

It is really hard work, she dominates my thoughts. Everything is hard work. No matter what I do it is never enough. She wasn't well 2 weeks ago so I brought her and my 4 month old dgd home so I could look after them both. For 2 days I had the baby completely, looking after her whn I got home from work, getting up in the night and first thing in the morning until I needed to get ready for work. On the 3rd night when she was feeling better (not completely but better) I said she needed to wake up in the night with the baby as I was tired and needed rest. This sparked the anger. Anything can spark the anger and I walk on egg shells but often she pushes me too far, I become resentful because I do so much for her and think about her continually but it's never enough & never appreciated.

Yesterday I took her and dgd swimming with a friend of mine and her baby. After swimming I took them to lunch but we walked into the town (4 mins walk) and it was raining. This was the first problem, she didn't want to walk and wanted me to drive. We got to a cafe. Wrong decision. I "knew this was somewhere she would hate" and she refused to order anything, even though there were loads of things available I knew she would like. She made the atmosphere increasingly uncomfortable until I said I would no longer give her a lift home and gave her the bus fare, which she threw at me. I told my friend I was only to leave, said goodbye to her and left. As I was walking off she started following me and screaming my name. I ran off. When I went to my car she was there and I gave her a lift home. She is very low and was crying, she has spent all her money has no food in the flat. I dropped her off and went home. I then received numerous very unpleasant messages from her. Very hurtful things are said to me. I sent my partner round with some food for her as I can't see her not eat, but even that got thrown back in my face, it wasn't enough, good enough, just shows how I don't care about her etc

today I had originally said she could come over for lunch today but now I cannot face it and need a break from the mind field being around her can be. I love her more than anything but am just exhausted with always thinking about her, navigating her moods, worrying about my granddaughter and her. It's exhausting and there's no answer and no end

Sorry very negative post

lostinrates

Determined new ms,

Is your granddaughter ok? Does she get cared for physically and emotionally?) are social services / any one else involved or aware of your concerns?



Edit: is there anything practical that determined new ms can be advised with, can we set aside or along side a discussion for a bit? I think It would be a beneficial result if help can be given...regardless of who by or opinion held.

Person_one

andygb wrote: »

I had already come to the conclusion that you were assuming that the people posting on this thread were quite possibly the "bad guys", and their accounts were not to be trusted.
I wish that you and others who share your opinions could share our experiences and meet the people we are referring to.
If you are going to be sceptical/dismissive about every person who posts on this subject (at least the ones who say that they THINK one of their friends/relations has NPD), then what is the point of you posting?
If on the other hand (as I genuinely wished that you would) you were to offer an opinion based on the information supplied by various people (which you say that you are reluctant to do, because you cannot diagnose), then I, and I am sure others, would appreciate that.:)

You assume I've never had dealings with deeply unpleasant and selfish people, and that I don't have any in my family. That's just an assumption though.

I don't assume that the people posting here are the 'bad guys', but its certainly true that different parties can have completely opposing opinions on the exact same situation and both consider themselves to be completely right and the other completely wrong. It happens all the time. Relationships are rarely so black and white as one person being the hero and another the villain.

I don't really understand your last paragraph I'm afraid.

andygb

Dunroamin wrote: »

I think that any of us who've led anything like a normal life will have had contact with selfish, deeply unpleasant and often abusive people. The difference seems to be between those who seek to label these people with as having some kind of syndrome and those who don't.

I actually agree with this whole post, because up until last year, I was indeed describing my sis as all of the things which you first mention.
I never used to use"labels" to describe people, preferring to use simple adjectives, because once you have attributed a syndrome/disorder to someone, then it is possible to start making excuses for their behaviour, rather than confront it and try to get them to start changing their ways.
I know relations with what I would describe "bad tempered" children, you know, the ones who are badly behaved in company, very rude, and yet the parents almost condone the behaviour, seemingly pleased that the child has a bit of "attitude" which makes them different from the other children. One of the parents seems to spend most of her time seeing specialists, convinced that her child has ADHD, Aspergers (because the child is very bright you know:() or anything else which may explain his behaviour, rather than maybe looking at herself being a bit more disciplined and caring in her approach to parenting.
I never once sought to label my sister with any disorder, it is just that every single behavioural trait which she exhibits seems to point to NPD - Nasty Person Disorder.