Narcisism!

andygb

Person_one wrote: »

You assume I've never had dealings with deeply unpleasant and selfish people, and that I don't have any in my family. That's just an assumption though.

I don't assume that the people posting here are the 'bad guys', but its certainly true that different parties can have completely opposing opinions on the exact same situation and both consider themselves to be completely right and the other completely wrong. It happens all the time. Relationships are rarely so black and white as one person being the hero and another the villain.

I don't really understand your last paragraph I'm afraid.

Apologies for the last bit, I was getting you mixed up with Poet123.

In reply to the rest of your post, if it was just me saying these things, then I would not bother posting on here, but it isn't.
It is me and my OH, three relations and their partners, who have been on the receiving end of abusive correspondence and phone calls from my sister, following something which came to a head nearly two years ago. She has also tried to blackmail one other close relation and myself, but has not followed through on that front, because she has basically made up stories, and been approached by the other relations since.

I am aware that everyone comes across nasty and unpleasant people in their life, so I am not going to try to downplay other people's experiences, in the same way that I can empathise with people who have experienced exactly the same as I have experienced.

Vicky123

andygb wrote: »

I had already come to the conclusion that you were assuming that the people posting on this thread were quite possibly the "bad guys", and their accounts were not to be trusted.
I wish that you and others who share your opinions could share our experiences and meet the people we are referring to.
If you are going to be sceptical/dismissive about every person who posts on this subject (at least the ones who say that they THINK one of their friends/relations has NPD), then what is the point of you posting?
If on the other hand (as I genuinely wished that you would) you were to offer an opinion based on the information supplied by various people (which you say that you are reluctant to do, because you cannot diagnose), then I, and I am sure others, would appreciate that.:)

Try not to concern yourself too much about whether particular people believe you/others and realise that someone wishing they could hear the other side is faintly ridiculous as it would apply to every single thread, not just this one, it's put out there to throw doubt around, on a forum like this there is a choice to take something at face value or just move on. Already we have someone posting that Narcissism is not a diagnosis it's a behaviour. So autism isn't a diagnosis then as it's a set of behaviours, try running that one past all the paediatricians up and down the country.
It would be nice if this thread continued as a source of support for those who are struggling to live a normal life in the shadow of narcissism, or if the doubters prefer extreme emotional abuse as most people will accept that someone knows when they are being emotionally abused and then they will have nothing to keep chiming in about.
Everyone has a right to be respected and feel safe in their own home, don't lose sight of that by trying to jump through higher and higher hoops, just because some faceless person on line thinks they might just be unpleasant.

determined_new_ms

lostinrates wrote: »

Determined new ms,

Is your granddaughter ok? Does she get cared for physically and emotionally?) are social services / any one else involved or aware of your concerns?



Edit: is there anything practical that determined new ms can be advised with, can we set aside or along side a discussion for a bit? I think It would be a beneficial result if help can be given...regardless of who by or opinion held.

Thank you for your comment. Actually has made me feel quite emotional. In the main yes, but sometimes no. Sometimes she is very hard/cold to her when her mood is low. I have witnessed her shouting at her a couple of times. Every time afterwards she is full of remorse but she is a slave to her emotions. Yesterday her behaviour in the cafe was really unacceptable and there is a real possibility my friend will call SS and tell them what happened. Maybe they will take someone else seriously.

I have tried speaking to her social worker but when they meet with her she tells them everything is fine and they believe it. I have suggested several times I think she has a bpd but they think I am the one who is unwell and I should get my MH assessed (have actually said that to my dd). My dd went to the gp on Friday to tell them about being depressed and not coping. I am thinking of making an appt with the gp to tell them about my concerns, her history, what makes me believe what I do. Maybe they will refer her to the mental health team and she can start to get some help.

I believe if she can get the right help she will be ok.

andygb

Tiddlywinks wrote: »

Interestingly, some of those throwing those labels around should look at their own mannerisms and motivations and take the 'test' themselves. How many boxes would they tick?

How many boxes would you tick?;)

OK, if I take myself as an example, I like to go with the flow when I am in company, or at a party or social gathering. I am not a loud and proud person, and I can take part in a fairly even conversation about a variety of subjects. I am not at all materialistic, and I am not good looking, and do not go around looking in mirrors constantly, or spend a lot of time preening myself. I also take time to know a person, and do not judge on first appearances. I do not discriminate against anyone.
My sister on the other hand, is a very good judge of character (these will be her words, not mine), and can tell what a person is like just by looking at them. She would call herself very religious, but is racists against black people (apparently they are lazy), and is very insulting towards my wife of 21 years because of where she was born. She will always attempt to control any situation she is in, telling them where they should go, what they should do/eat/wear. If she sees two people in conversation, then she will break up the conversation, or butt in and start talking about therself (her favourite subject). At Christmas/birthdays, she will tell anyone who is listening, how much she has spent on everyone, and how it is always the best quality. She will also treat other people's gifts to her with indifference.

I share this information on this thread, because it is a bit of a relief to do so.

lostinrates

determined_new_ms wrote: »

Thank you for your comment. Actually has made me feel quite emotional. In the main yes, but sometimes no. Sometimes she is very hard/cold to her when her mood is low. I have witnessed her shouting at her a couple of times. Every time afterwards she is full of remorse but she is a slave to her emotions. Yesterday her behaviour in the cafe was really unacceptable and there is a real possibility my friend will call SS and tell them what happened. Maybe they will take someone else seriously.

I have tried speaking to her social worker but when they meet with her she tells them everything is fine and they believe it. I have suggested several times I think she has a bpd but they think I am the one who is unwell and I should get my MH assessed (have actually said that to my dd). My dd went to the gp on Friday to tell them about being depressed and not coping. I am thinking of making an appt with the gp to tell them about my concerns, her history, what makes me believe what I do. Maybe they will refer her to the mental health team and she can start to get some help.

I believe if she can get the right help she will be ok.

I'm genuinely sorry your post is being lost in a hubbub of other stuff ATM. I am sure others will pick up on it soon
So she does have a social worker.

I know even less about the social work side of things I'm afraid. I'm mainly replying so other people see it and reply to you. .

As an oblique tactic, if you did seek help for yourself would this alert the system to her needing help? I don't know, its a genuine question.

How old is your daughter? She is very reliant on you is seems. Is there a partner involved?

determined_new_ms

lostinrates wrote: »

I'm genuinely sorry your post is being lost in a hubbub of other stuff ATM. I am sure others will pick up on it soon
So she does have a social worker.

I know even less about the social work side of things I'm afraid. I'm mainly replying so other people see it and reply to you. .

As an oblique tactic, if you did seek help for yourself would this alert the system to her needing help? I don't know, its a genuine question.

How old is your daughter? She is very reliant on you is seems. Is there a partner involved?

Thanks lostinrates

Yes she is very dependent on me. One of the many reasons why I believe she has bpd, she wants to be a child, takes no responsibility for her own actions and consequences. Today I am to blame for her not having any food (although she does, staples that I gave her yesterday. Not a banquet by any means but enough for several meals) because I don't want her to come to lunch today as I need a break from it all. Conveniently she has forgotten the £40 she wasted on Friday.

She is about to turn 20 and no there is no partner. She has been very troubled since going through puberty at 11. Things were extremely difficult (even extremely is an understatement) when she was a teenager and we went through hell for years, continuous and unrelenting behaviour for years which included drinking, reckless behaviour, refusing to go to school, domestic violence, & so much more. I was always told it was rebellious teenage behaviour and it would improve. It was only in the last year when you put it all together it has built a pattern of something more when it still continues. A lot of the stuff (earlier on) you could put down to teenage rebellion but when all put together it spells a different story. Particularly as some of it is still there and when you can see the damage this behaviour is having on her life - the uncontrollable emotions, the destructive behaviour and seeing her so remorseful for why she does these things but can't stop herself.

And then she has this other side which is lovely and funny, vivacious and cute

poet123

determined_new_ms wrote: »

Thank you for your comment. Actually has made me feel quite emotional. In the main yes, but sometimes no. Sometimes she is very hard/cold to her when her mood is low. I have witnessed her shouting at her a couple of times. Every time afterwards she is full of remorse but she is a slave to her emotions. Yesterday her behaviour in the cafe was really unacceptable and there is a real possibility my friend will call SS and tell them what happened. Maybe they will take someone else seriously.

I have tried speaking to her social worker but when they meet with her she tells them everything is fine and they believe it. I have suggested several times I think she has a bpd but they think I am the one who is unwell and I should get my MH assessed (have actually said that to my dd). My dd went to the gp on Friday to tell them about being depressed and not coping. I am thinking of making an appt with the gp to tell them about my concerns, her history, what makes me believe what I do. Maybe they will refer her to the mental health team and she can start to get some help.

I believe if she can get the right help she will be ok.

As a family we have been through this with my SIL. It is very hard to get the professionals to see what you see on a daily basis. My MIL had to insist on going to appointments with her because she would say everything was fine and they looked no further. She lives alone and we would visit and find unopened mail, bills, etc, and long story short, eventually, my MIL became responsible for her finances for her own peace of mind.

I could write a book about the last 32 years...but the bottom line is that unless you push, chivvy and badger the authorities they will take at face value what is said in relation to MH issues.

My sil is much better now, stable and more amenable. It has been a long road though and even now she is always in danger of being shunted off the pysch list if she goes too long without an episode, and then the road to get back to that level of treatment begins again. They regularly want to close the book on her and just have her GP monitor her despite her being on medication As a family we resist that because in the event of an issue being on the list speeds up the availability and access to the required services.

The starting point is your GP, make that appointment and be honest about your fears. My MIL had to bring her own health into it to get them to start taking it seriously, and it has taken its toll. It will take its toll on you. Especially with a baby in the equation. My nieces grew up with this spectre hanging over them and it has affected them too, so the earlier you act the better imo.

I imagine you are at the point where you fear acting and fear not acting, that is an emotional bridge to cross. Perhaps had there not been a baby in the picture you could have muddled through without professional help, but I think (as it was in our family) there comes a point when for all the right reasons you have to act and hope that by doing so you are extending the support network for your daughter not causing more angst. Although short term that may be how she sees it.

I am not sure if this post helps, and of course, I was not as invested in my SIL as you are as a mother, so emotionally it was much easier for me than it was for my MIL, but it is posted with the best of intentions and will hopefully bolster you in making a very hard first step. Good luck.

poet123

meritaten wrote: »

This is the only reason I have not already asked for deletion of this thread.

but there is debate and there is derision of a thread - and frankly I feel some people came on here with an agenda. They will not deviate from their own viewpoint, they do not accept others points of view, they are completely intransigent! they do not seem to realise they are upsetting people, just set on putting their own views across, is it sounding familiar?????????????????????

Everyone has their own viewpoint, and they are entitled to express it without it being obliquely suggested that they suffer from a personality disorder. However, you have, by doing so, perfectly illustrated my point. You don't like my opinion, you don't agree with it, you seek to control its expression and you label it.

It is not hard to extrapolate that to rl situations and see that it could happen there too. You have shown clearly why I and others have concerns about MH labels being attached without professional expertise.

Vicky123 wrote: »

No, what I'm saying is autism behaviour can involve actions that are hurtful where no hurt is intended, narcissists intend to hurt, if they didn't then it wouldn't be narcissistic behaviour.
I believe it's cognitive empathy as opposed to emotional empathy.
I hope that clears my post up for you as obviously no one would choose to have a personality disorder and Narcissists in particular would claim they do not have one, which is why many victims would use the internet to validate their own feelings.

It is not quite that simple. A person with true NPD sees only their needs as important, and is blinkered about how those needs are met., they only care that they are. They do not see others as having needs, feelings etc. Other people are voids to them.

meritaten wrote: »

and this isn't a 'diagnosis'? its pretty definite isn't it?

No, not a diagnosis just an explanation of the different strands of PD and how they manifest in general. A diagnosis is person specific. We have had diagnosis on here by posters as they have named a specific person in their lives who they have "diagnosed" as having NPD. It is a subtle but important distinction to make.

determined_new_ms

poet123 wrote: »

As a family we have been through this with my SIL. It is very hard to get the professionals to see what you see on a daily basis. My MIL had to insist on going to appointments with her because she would say everything was fine and they looked no further. She lives alone and we would visit and find unopened mail, bills, etc, and long story short, eventually, my MIL became responsible for her finances for her own peace of mind.

I could write a book about the last 32 years...but the bottom line is that unless you push, chivvy and badger the authorities they will take at face value what is said in relation to MH issues.

My sil is much better now, stable and more amenable. It has been a long road though and even now she is always in danger of being shunted off the pysch list if she goes too long without an episode, and then the road to get back to that level of treatment begins again. They regularly want to close the book on her and just have her GP monitor her despite her being on medication As a family we resist that because in the event of an issue being on the list speeds up the availability and access to the required services.

The starting point is your GP, make that appointment and be honest about your fears. My MIL had to bring her own health into it to get them to start taking it seriously, and it has taken its toll. It will take its toll on you. Especially with a baby in the equation. My nieces grew up with this spectre hanging over them and it has affected them too, so the earlier you act the better imo.

I imagine you are at the point where you fear acting and fear not acting, that is an emotional bridge to cross. Perhaps had there not been a baby in the picture you could have muddled through without professional help, but I think (as it was in our family) there comes a point when for all the right reasons you have to act and hope that by doing so you are extending the support network for your daughter not causing more angst. Although short term that may be how she sees it.

I am not sure if this post helps, and of course, I was not as invested in my SIL as you are as a mother, so emotionally it was much easier for me than it was for my MIL, but it is posted with the best of intentions and will hopefully bolster you in making a very hard first step. Good luck.

thanks for your message. It has taken it's toll, no doubt there. But you bounce back as best as you can. I have been to the absolute edge of what I can take, and sometimes further.

It's to some degree easier now as I have refused to live with her for the last year. I am no longer prepared to keep playing out the same situation. That has been unbelievably hard and has emotionally torn me to pieces at times but I have stayed strong and despite a period of being homeless & sofa surfing at a friends she now has a flat and although it is only a studio flat and not ideal which causes a lot of upset for her.

(I would just like to add while I refused to live with her I did everything I could to support and help her find alternative accommodation. She wasn't on her own doing it, although undoubtedly she felt she was, I went to the LL with her to get temporary accommodation, helped her with getting a solicitor to appeal the decision she was intentionally homeless so she got an extra 6 weeks in temporary accommodation, helped her call landlords, took her to viewings, helped her move when she did find somewhere)

You are right I am afraid of saying something that makes her life worse, but I am afraid of not doing anything. The last thing I want is to make her life harder, but am afraid of what will happen if she doesn't get help.

I am not saying she has a personality disorder but that she has displayed lots of traits of the disorder and the impact of her mood swings and behaviour is debilitating her life

poet123

andygb wrote: »

I had already come to the conclusion that you were assuming that the people posting on this thread were quite possibly the "bad guys", and their accounts were not to be trusted.
I wish that you and others who share your opinions could share our experiences and meet the people we are referring to.
If you are going to be sceptical/dismissive about every person who posts on this subject (at least the ones who say that they THINK one of their friends/relations has NPD), then what is the point of you posting?
If on the other hand (as I genuinely wished that you would) you were to offer an opinion based on the information supplied by various people (which you say that you are reluctant to do, because you cannot diagnose), then I, and I am sure others, would appreciate that.:)

Looking at the response further down it appears that although you quoted PO it was actually directed at me.

So, I have no way of knowing if some who have posted on here have their own issues which leads to their interaction with the person concerned being fraught. If I had to be honest I would suspect that was, at the very least, a contributing factor. I wouldn't say "bad guys" but not wholly blameless either would be my best guess.

Unless I am wrong the thread title is quite clear, and the content of some posts even more so. It is not for those who think they may be having interaction with a Narcissist, and from there suggestions on how to get that medically confirmed, but for those who have decided person a ticks the boxes and so they have Npd. They have it, end of.

I am not comfortable with that and will express that discomfort if I choose to do so. That is the point of my post. Although as far as I know posters do not have to justify why they respond to any given thread.

With regard to you last para, what are you not understanding about my previous answers? I am not qualified to medically assess your sister or anyone else, if I was it certainly wouldn't be on the basis of one side of the equation on a forum.

As a layman I am qualified to say that given the accepted incidence of NPD it is certain that there are those who for their own reasons are attaching that label to a relative.

This has been aptly illustrated by Meriten who attempted to attach it to me for expressing an opinion contrary to hers, and in another post suggested that I was posting because of an agenda specific to her.

It beggars belief that my interest in a subject due to personal and professional issues can be turned back on me in this manner. But it was very telling.

I was out last night but I think I have now caught up with the issues raised and responded to them. (an explanation of my posts lest it is suggested that several posts in quick succession is indicative of something.....;))