Teachers please - Y4 expected SATS levels

jellyhead

They send out a questionnaire asking for your details, but they don't take the child off the programme if the circumstances don't fit. School told me that the council selects which children to put on the programme.

We've both got degrees, although my husband is not his father, and on paper he has no father. I don't work and our house is on a council estate.

The aimhigher coordinator thought they just looked at which pupils had decent grades and lived on the council estates. My nephew would benefit from it but they are in a private rented house so he's not on the radar.

t4mof

Gingham_R wrote: »

Not necessarily. The NC primary handbook state that children can be assessed by the teacher at higher grades but that few will be working beyond level 5. Level 6 criteria are given but they can be assessed higher, though not in an official exam.

This is interesting and something I didn't know. My son is just finishing Y5 and is working at 5b/5a for maths. We have asked the school if he can take the Level 5-7 paper for his Y6 SATS next year but they refused and said they will only offer the Level 3-5 paper.

My concern is that he has a real chance of being a Level 6 yet this isn't going to get passed onto his secondary school and he'll be seen by the secondary school as one of the Level 5 children when he's working above that level. This year the school have achieved 34% of children gaining Level 5 in English and Maths so it's a reasonably high achieving school.

I think we're going to go down the line of setting up a meeting next year with the head of his current school and the head of Y7 because he might as well have not turned up in Y3 when he changed schools from infant to juniors. He achieved Level 4c in his Y2 SATS, yet the junior school thought the infant school had inflated the score so he ended up repeating a lot of stuff including starting his x tables from 2x again even though he knew all his x tables by the end of Y1. :wall:

His junior school failed him completely in Y3 and I can't stand the thought of Y7 being the same again.

**Patty** wrote: »

Unfortunately, the primary he goes to has higher than the national average of SEN children and all the time & resources seem to be going in that direction.

My DS school have admitted this to us. We've pushed and pushed for some of the SENcO budget to be spent on DS but they said it's more important for the lower ability children to achieve Level 4. :wall: I don't think 1 hour a week for him to have some dedicated one on one time for his maths is too much to ask to be honest.

Sorry for the long post but the above situation always makes me rant to the point where I've ended up in tears at work at how under-valued they make me feel his education is to them.... and breathe!

Gingham_R

milliebear00001 wrote: »

Yes, it's unusual. I find it astonishing that anyone would want to do an IQ test on a five year old.

They're diagnostically essential in the process of assessing various special needs - including at 5 years old. They're done by educational psychologists all the time.

Gingham_R

t4mof wrote: »

Sorry for the long post but the above situation always makes me rant to the point where I've ended up in tears at work at how under-valued they make me feel his education is to them.... and breathe!

I really feel for you.

Teachers are not trained in this and my only training in high ability was a casual comment that bright kids could effectively 'fend for themselves' in the classroom. So I don't blame teachers who don't get it. It's not their fault. But it's VERY damaging to children when their needs aren't being met - regardless of whether their learning difference is seen as a 'disability' or a 'gift'.

There are several people on this thread who would benefit from talking to someone at the NAGC. And it wouldn't be necessary if the kids' needs were being met in schools.

Originally Posted by M A R I E
I'm not so sure that all this talk of G&T children is actually helping the OP????????

The OP's question has been answered but there are others on the thread whose situation has come to light as being not straightforward (and woefully misunderstood) who are also looking for answers.

Spendless
This thread has been really interesting for me, not so much about where children should be at, but the sensitivity, the not getting on with peers, is all starting to fall into place. I know Gingham has told me to contact the NAGC before, but like Sam, I didn't really know what to say to them.

Just tell them what you've said here, Spendless! It's your chance now to find out just what your lovely lad needs.

Gingham_R

thatgirlsam wrote: »

I pray she doesn't need too much help from me as I will let her down big time

:(I missed this earlier. Please don't ever think that. I don't believe it for a second.

She's far too bright though to assume that she'll be fine at school. You may need to help advocate for her to prevent her being overlooked because she can already do the work they want to teach.

An important question to ask is not what they are being taught but what she is learning in class. If she already knows what is being taught how are they helping her learn? That's all any child deserves from school.

jellyhead

t4mof wrote: »

My concern is that he has a real chance of being a Level 6 yet this isn't going to get passed onto his secondary school and he'll be seen by the secondary school as one of the Level 5 children when he's working above that level. This year the school have achieved 34% of children gaining Level 5 in English and Maths so it's a reasonably high achieving school.

What do they do for bright kids in year 6? My son isn't G+T but his friends are, so I know a bit about what was done for them. Our primary takes a few kids to high school for maths lessons, and there's something else - possibly for English but I don't remember the details. That was at a different high school. Our primary feeds into both as it's in the middle of 2 catchments. Your primary might do something like this in year 6, it's worth asking.

Our primary didn't assess past level 5 in the SATS either, and in year 2 they tested level 3 for the kids who got 2A, but no further than that. My son's friend is the brightest in school and he only got the straight 5's in year 6 that everyone else in the top stream got.

When they get to high school they are given a target level for the end of year 9. All the level 5 children had targets of level 7, and those were not adjusted until the end of year 9 as far as I know. My son got level 7 in science early on in year 7 but they didn't adjust his target grade. They use the year 6 maths grade to predict levels for IT, the english grade to predict for history, geography and RE etc.

We get a high school report every term, detailing the expected end of key stage level and whether they are working below, on or above. It also includes their current level, and the previous 2 terms levels for comparison.

They must have some other mechanism for picking up the G+T children and taking them for extra teaching, because my son's friend was in extra programmes and high school knew that he was very forward for his age.

It's a shame all schools don't have a budget for gifted children, because being gifted is a SEN too.

Spendless

jellyhead wrote: »

What do they do for bright kids in year 6? My son isn't G+T but his friends are, so I know a bit about what was done for them. Our primary takes a few kids to high school for maths lessons, and there's something else - possibly for English but I don't remember the details. That was at a different high school. Our primary feeds into both as it's in the middle of 2 catchments. Your primary might do something like this in year 6, it's worth asking.

Our primary didn't assess past level 5 in the SATS either, and in year 2 they tested level 3 for the kids who got 2A, but no further than that. My son's friend is the brightest in school and he only got the straight 5's in year 6 that everyone else in the top stream got.

When they get to high school they are given a target level for the end of year 9. All the level 5 children had targets of level 7, and those were not adjusted until the end of year 9 as far as I know. My son got level 7 in science early on in year 7 but they didn't adjust his target grade. They use the year 6 maths grade to predict levels for IT, the english grade to predict for history, geography and RE etc.

We get a high school report every term, detailing the expected end of key stage level and whether they are working below, on or above. It also includes their current level, and the previous 2 terms levels for comparison.

They must have some other mechanism for picking up the G+T children and taking them for extra teaching, because my son's friend was in extra programmes and high school knew that he was very forward for his age.

It's a shame all schools don't have a budget for gifted children, because being gifted is a SEN too.

It varies depending on the school and the subject they are identified as G & T in. My son was identified in G & T in Science, has taken part in Science days at the local Secondary school and is going to a Science summer school for a week in August that is aimed at yr 6 kids like him. He was also identified as g & t in music (which never made any sense to me) where the same school never did anything with it, despite them being very musical and award winning! I still believe it wasn't a musical ability but a mathematical one showing though. DS has since packed in playing his instrument.

At the end of yr 5, DS report said from his teacher 'I do not believe XXs sats result in numeracy reflect his classroom ability' I can't remember what he got results but around average. I took it up with his yr6 teacher who revealed that there were 3 ability maths groups, and it had been decided based on their sats results and DS was in the middle set, where he did the classic example of someone who isn't working to their ability and spend most of his time messing around. When it came to their mock sats he scored the highest in his set 5c and was the only child to be moved up to the top set. So I can understand some of the frustration t4mof is feeling. I am just glad DS (and me!) went thru this 'learning curve' in Juniors rather than Senior school.

We then went thru a further blip with literacy, which is his weaker subject and he is definately not g & T in this area, with a 3a in his mock sats, to the surprise of his teacher who had predicted high 4/low 5. Worried that Secondary school would have the children placed on how they did overall (cos he's my eldest and I've not been 'in the system' since my own schooldays) and that a weakness in literacy would knock him back in his stronger subjects, I paid for a private tutor and it was the best thing I ever did. 4 x 1hr sessions sorted it, though I paid for 1 extra session. It cost £15 per hour. I would say to people look into this option if you are worried about a child needing help and not getting it via their school.

peachyprice

t4mof wrote: »

This is interesting and something I didn't know. My son is just finishing Y5 and is working at 5b/5a for maths. We have asked the school if he can take the Level 5-7 paper for his Y6 SATS next year but they refused and said they will only offer the Level 3-5 paper.

My concern is that he has a real chance of being a Level 6 yet this isn't going to get passed onto his secondary school and he'll be seen by the secondary school as one of the Level 5 children when he's working above that level. This year the school have achieved 34% of children gaining Level 5 in English and Maths so it's a reasonably high achieving school.

My DS school have admitted this to us. We've pushed and pushed for some of the SENcO budget to be spent on DS but they said it's more important for the lower ability children to achieve Level 4. :wall:

This only goes to prove the real purpose of the y6 SATS. They are not for the benefit of the child at all, they are for the benefit of the school.

The school won't care that your child can gain a level 6 because they are only required to report the number of children that have achieved up to level 5. This is why they would rather spend the money getting the less-able children up to level 4, they do not want to have to report that children are leaving yr6 having only reached level 3, it does not good on their league tables.

Have you spoken to the high school he's going to to see if they do their own assessments within the first few weeks of joining?

jellyhead

As you say every school is different, but my son's school and my nephews school both look at the maths, science and english result separately. A poor english result won't affect the maths set they go into although it may an effect on how many languages they study, which RE set they are in etc.

My son got 5 in english (he was told he HAD to, it was expected of all of them) then floundered in higher ability classes for english and RE at high school. He's good at german, but RE was a horrible struggle until he dropped it for year 9.

He always tested well due to high reading age, large vocabulary and excellent spelling. He doesn't compose very well though, and will have to work hard to get a C at GCSE. Things should improve now that they have allowed him to type instead of hand write.

I would consider getting a tutor for GCSE, but personally I would rather their SATS were closer to the teacher assessment rather than too high for their ability.

But then my kids aren't G+T, and yours is very bright.

Lunar_Eclipse

milliebear00001 wrote: »

You assume that intelligence is firstly, definable and accurately measurable, and secondly, largely innate (if you rely on an IQ test as an accurate measure).

Actually, I can see how intelligence may be immeasurable and undefinable, but I do believe it can be innate ....

... and I've just deleted the rest of my reply because it is unbelievably frustrating having an exceptionally gifted child in the system (even an outstanding one), that I can't be bothered to discuss my thoughts on IQ tests and their relevance. Frankly they are not important.

If you have some stories about high achievers academically, who have low IQ's as measured by the tests, then I'd be interested to hear them. (For the record, I absolutely do not believe IQ is related to general success in life, and in fact, there is evidence that suggests the most intelligent people typically under perform.)