Teachers please - Y4 expected SATS levels

JC9297

Lunar_Eclipse wrote: »

Level 8 is really something else (I think it equates to about a GCSE grade C) and firstly I'd query how the school have come to that conclusion, because it is way beyond the curriculum normally taught at primary school (ie if she really is working at L8, then she has some very unusual innate gift with numbers that I think you would notice.) A handful of the highly gifted children at our secondary school achieve L8 in Maths at the end of Y8, to give you some perspective.

Yes I would also question how the teacher has decided she is working at Level 8, children do not usually sit a paper where it is possible to get Level 8 until year 9. My son has recently sat the Level 6-8 maths paper, the level 8 questions are not just harder sums - they are on areas of maths that will never even be touched upon in primary school.

Perhaps the teacher considers your daughter would be able to do them if she was taught them, but I can't see how she can have evidence to support her assessment.

milliebear00001

Lunar_Eclipse wrote: »

Affluent middle class professionals.

The IQ tests are ultimately carried out to help the school achieve its high SATS results. They are used to highlight those that are potentially gifted (score above 130) and those that will need to be taught in smaller groups to at least achieve L4 in Y6 (which is more often than not children of average intelligence, ie score around 100.)

They then look out for children under performing against their IQ. For example, I just heard of a child whose IQ score was 125 but is performing at around 85 in his school tests, using the age standardised score against the specific SATs level. He is going into a focus group next year to try to reduce this gap between actual and expected performance.

I believe all schools do a similar thing for Y7 entry. Not IQ tests as such, but the Midas testing to predict GCSE grades. State and private use this university based system; I'm sure you'll know of it.

It really is a self fulfilling prophecy to a large degree. My head told me what my 11 year old should get in her GCSEs last year!

It is absolutely the self-fulfilling prophecy element in this that would concern me!

There is a temptation to perceive a child with an IQ score of 85 as 'less likely' to achieve highly. IQ testing is highly controversial in itself and there is much evidence discrediting its use as a predictive measure of success.

The CAT tests you refer to at secondary school are different from IQ tests in that they are recognised as producing a picture of a child at a given time where that picture is not fixed and re-testing is advised to measure improvement/deterioration in the scores achieved. They measure different reasoning skills.

I can't see how an IQ test would help me plan for a child one iota, and would be concerned if a school used any such result to judge whether my child would be 'likely' to achieve to a particular level from a very early age. I hope that isn't what happens at your school.

thatgirlsam

JC9297 wrote: »

Yes I would also question how the teacher has decided she is working at Level 8, children do not usually sit a paper where it is possible to get Level 8 until year 9. My son has recently sat the Level 6-8 maths paper, the level 8 questions are not just harder sums - they are on areas of maths that will never even be touched upon in primary school.

Perhaps the teacher considers your daughter would be able to do them if she was taught them, but I can't see how she can have evidence to support her assessment.

It wasn't a formal assessment, her teacher told me that she was working at a level 8, how she knows this I do not know

She works seperatley to the rest of her class in maths so I am sure that she is perhaps doing area of maths not usual for her age group

Gingham_R

JC9297 wrote: »

Yes I would also question how the teacher has decided she is working at Level 8, children do not usually sit a paper where it is possible to get Level 8 until year 9. My son has recently sat the Level 6-8 maths paper, the level 8 questions are not just harder sums - they are on areas of maths that will never even be touched upon in primary school.

Perhaps the teacher considers your daughter would be able to do them if she was taught them, but I can't see how she can have evidence to support her assessment.

Not necessarily. The NC primary handbook state that children can be assessed by the teacher at higher grades but that few will be working beyond level 5. Level 6 criteria are given but they can be assessed higher, though not in an official exam.

My year 2 child didn't do the KS1 science paper the rest of his class were doing. He did the KS2 paper with the SENCo. There are lots of ways the child can be assessed if the teacher is willing and knowledgeable.

If the teacher says she's working at a level 8, that's almost certainly what's happening. I know a year 6 boy who's a level 8 in maths. He does separate work to his peers sometimes, but mostly he's just bored stiff.

Gingham_R

thatgirlsam, the NAGC support families of children with high learning potential, like your daughter. They aren't linked to school targets or government targets etc. They're a charity who recognise that these kids don't always have their needs met at school, that they are often extremely sensitive or emotional or perfectionists or are lonely because they're 'different' or their parents aren't believed when they explain to people what their children are doing and much, much more.

They have local branches where you can go along and meet other gifted children and their families and they have larger events round the country where kids can do activities and parents can go to workshops. Or they offer phone support to talk through concerns.

Gingham_R

milliebear00001 wrote: »

I can't see how an IQ test would help me plan for a child one iota,l.

I hope I can help a little if you're interested. An exceptionally high IQ score cannot be obtained by a child who is not highly intelligent and if you have a child who has scored very highly on one but is not performing well at school, this is an indication of a problem that needs to be seriously looked into a dealt with.

If a child has unusually high scores on some sub tests and much lower scores on others, it can indicate asynchronous development and/or a gifted child with a learning difficulty that needs to be addressed.

IQ tests can be used in a destructive way, for example to make decisions that children won't do well, but they are crucial to the diagnosis of several conditions that seriously affect children's education and development. So I would hope that where a school is using them, they are used to aid recognition of children whose needs require further investigation and to provide enrichment for children who would otherwise by bored and unhappy in school.

Lunar_Eclipse

milliebear00001 wrote: »

There is a temptation to perceive a child with an IQ score of 85 as 'less likely' to achieve highly.

Assuming the IQ score was representative of the child's intelligence and not a one off obscure result, it is logical to assume that child is less likely to achieve highly than one with a much higher IQ. In general. That is the purpose of the test, namely to test one's innate intelligence as opposed to knowledge gained. As with anything though, there is a margin of error and exceptions that challenge the rule. Additionally, they could be used to draw dangerous assumptions, but I have not seen that to be the case at our school. Interestingly, most children at our school perform very loosely in line with their IQ and substantial deviations are given considerable thought. I suppose the tests are ultimately done to capture those children displaying deviations. That surely can only be a good thing.

I know there is controversy surrounding IQ tests and some people over and under perform in relation to it at school. Personally however, I do believe they help gain an overall picture of a child's potential and progress and thus see them as beneficial to the child.

pleasedelete

Unless she has been taught level 8 which would usually involve teaching from a linked secondary school she cannot be assessed at level 8. You can just pick the bits you want and say well in this part she would be level 8. She would have had to be taught the entire syllabus which is highly unlikely unless the primary teacher is a specialist maths teacher and suitably qualified to assess at gcse level or she has been taught the full syllabus by a qualified secondary teacher who could assess this.

Lunar_Eclipse

Gingham_R wrote: »

LE, I'm really interested in what your school is doing. What IQ test do you use? How are children with high IQ and a learning disability catered for?

In all honesty I'm not sure. I think they use NFER standard tests and also something else which is sent away and comes back within 6 weeks. All children are tested within the first month, along with Maths & English, plus a really great questionnaire done online about how they like to learn, what distracts them and their home life (!)

Children with a high IQ and also performing above 130 in age standardised tests are included in gifted & talented activities, of which there are very few, in my opinion. All work in the classroom is tailored to ability though. There are children in every class that fall within this category.

Children with genuine learning disabilities are encouraged to go to another local school which will meet their needs much better (and they do.) Our Head is not ashamed to say that as a large, high performing school, he can't cater for specific disabilities. Please don't shoot the messenger!

Children who are assessed as being at risk of not achieving the national L4 target for Maths & English are taught in focus groups of 6-12 children for these subjects. This equates to about 20% of every year group, all of which then go on to achieve the L4.

Gingham_R

pleasedelete wrote: »

Unless she has been taught level 8 which would usually involve teaching from a linked secondary school she cannot be assessed at level 8. You can just pick the bits you want and say well in this part she would be level 8. She would have had to be taught the entire syllabus which is highly unlikely unless the primary teacher is a specialist maths teacher and suitably qualified to assess at gcse level or she has been taught the full syllabus by a qualified secondary teacher who could assess this.

With respect, that's not the case. Just because someone hasn't been taught a particular thing at school doesn't mean that they don't know it. There's a difference between learning and teaching.

My son has never been taught the syllabus for KS2, but he already knows it inside out. That's part of what being gifted is. It's finding out for themselves and needing a different curriculum, which they seldom get.