Scrap copper

SailorSam

Russe11 wrote: »

Get real the small claims court will not entertain such nonsence.

If it was in the written agreement then maybe it would be a different matter.

You're sure of that are you ?
Well the Op may well have a written agreement to have the plumbing done.
Check this link and you'll see a list of six things that you can make a claim for, we'll just take three :
1, Bad workmanship, It's often normal practise to leave any parts that have been replaced. If you take your car into a garage to get new brakes they'll leave the old ones in the boot. Why should a plumber be any different.
2, Damage to your property: The copper belonged to the Op by disposing of it he has caused damage.
3, Goods not supplied: The Op asked that all the copper be returned to him, the plumber has not supplied it.

Making a Claim

I'm not an expert on making claims but i have been to the small claims court once, and we won. We'd been building a garage and had ready mix cement for the base, a few weeks later when the garage was complete we phoned for concrete for the path, we waited in but they never came until late afternoon telling us we were the last call, unfortunately 'cos we were the last call they ran out and said they'd come back the next day, i wasn't happy and insisted they went back to the depot and brought more that night, i was worried about it drying out and making the join.
The path didn't look good but we just wanted it finished so never complained however within a year or so it started to break-up, there had been to much sand in the mix, we complained he said hardluck that was a year ago. We went to the Small Claims and received money not just for the cement but for the engineers report we'd paid for; someone to dig out all the old concrete and somebody to lay a new path.
We had a written receipt for a few yards of concrete, the small claims court are very helpful to the lay person.

WhiteHorse

Gave it all to a passing scrap collector? Yeah right.

Plumbers normally take scrap copper pipes, brass fittings and iron radiators and sell them. They claim that the reclaim value is factored into your quote, but this is a lie. It's a perk, and a very lucrative one too.

Before he started, you told him to retain them because you wanted to keep them - they were yours to start with and you never relinquished ownership. That makes it theft.

Steve_xx

SailorSam wrote: »

You're sure of that are you ?
Well the Op may well have a written agreement to have the plumbing done.
Check this link and you'll see a list of six things that you can make a claim for, we'll just take three :
1, Bad workmanship, It's often normal practise to leave any parts that have been replaced. If you take your car into a garage to get new brakes they'll leave the old ones in the boot. Why should a plumber be any different.
2, Damage to your property: The copper belonged to the Op by disposing of it he has caused damage.
3, Goods not supplied: The Op asked that all the copper be returned to him, the plumber has not supplied it.

Making a Claim

I'm not an expert on making claims but i have been to the small claims court once, and we won. We'd been building a garage and had ready mix cement for the base, a few weeks later when the garage was complete we phoned for concrete for the path, we waited in but they never came until late afternoon telling us we were the last call, unfortunately 'cos we were the last call they ran out and said they'd come back the next day, i wasn't happy and insisted they went back to the depot and brought more that night, i was worried about it drying out and making the join.
The path didn't look good but we just wanted it finished so never complained however within a year or so it started to break-up, there had been to much sand in the mix, we complained he said hardluck that was a year ago. We went to the Small Claims and received money not just for the cement but for the engineers report we'd paid for; someone to dig out all the old concrete and somebody to lay a new path.
We had a written receipt for a few yards of concrete, the small claims court are very helpful to the lay person.

Point 1 incorrect. The disposal of the old pipework has nothing to do with the quality of the new installation and indeed to OP is not complaining about any aspect relating to the new installation.

Point 2 is incorrect. Damage has not been cause by removal of the copper, but theft has.

Point 3 is incorrect since the plumber could not "supply" that which was there in the first place.

This is a simple case of theft. A plumber was engaged to replace the pipework and was instructed to leave the old pipework at the premises. The plumber decided to take the pipework and scrap it. Given that the plumber disobeyed the owner then the plumber must give the monies from the sale, all of the money, to the owner of the pipe. Or, he must return it.

SailorSam

My main point was the Small Claims Court WILL help you, the criteria they use to decide is ,common sense.

vax2002

I took some old climbing frame pipes £8 however , a guy behind lifted a sack of copper on the scales, yes one guy lifted it and he got £96.
I would sack the plumber immediately, tell him he has stolen from the property he was working in and report the theft to the police, I would not entertain the excuses or mess about with the deductions, the scrap yards keep a log of registration numbers which have to be sent to the police on demand or they loose the licence.

Russe11

vax2002 wrote: »

I took some old climbing frame pipes £8 however , a guy behind lifted a sack of copper on the scales, yes one guy lifted it and he got £96.
I would sack the plumber immediately, tell him he has stolen from the property he was working in and report the theft to the police, I would not entertain the excuses or mess about with the deductions, the scrap yards keep a log of registration numbers which have to be sent to the police on demand or they loose the licence.

A sack of wire and a sack of pipe are 2 different things

Russe11

SailorSam wrote: »

You're sure of that are you ?
Well the Op may well have a written agreement to have the plumbing done.
Check this link and you'll see a list of six things that you can make a claim for, we'll just take three :
1, Bad workmanship, It's often normal practise to leave any parts that have been replaced. If you take your car into a garage to get new brakes they'll leave the old ones in the boot. Why should a plumber be any different.
2, Damage to your property: The copper belonged to the Op by disposing of it he has caused damage.
3, Goods not supplied: The Op asked that all the copper be returned to him, the plumber has not supplied it.

Making a Claim

I'm not an expert on making claims but i have been to the small claims court once, and we won. We'd been building a garage and had ready mix cement for the base, a few weeks later when the garage was complete we phoned for concrete for the path, we waited in but they never came until late afternoon telling us we were the last call, unfortunately 'cos we were the last call they ran out and said they'd come back the next day, i wasn't happy and insisted they went back to the depot and brought more that night, i was worried about it drying out and making the join.
The path didn't look good but we just wanted it finished so never complained however within a year or so it started to break-up, there had been to much sand in the mix, we complained he said hardluck that was a year ago. We went to the Small Claims and received money not just for the cement but for the engineers report we'd paid for; someone to dig out all the old concrete and somebody to lay a new path.
We had a written receipt for a few yards of concrete, the small claims court are very helpful to the lay person.

Its a breach of the contract agreed, nothing to do with workmanship or damage of property.

SailorSam

Russe11 wrote: »

Its a breach of the contract agreed, nothing to do with workmanship or damage of property.

If it's a breach of contract then we all agree.
The Op can make a claim. And if the plumber want give back the £700 then the Court will decide if and how much. And as it costs so little to take an action surely this must be the way to go.

Russe11

SailorSam wrote: »

If it's a breach of contract then we all agree.
The Op can make a claim. And if the plumber want give back the £700 then the Court will decide if and how much. And as it costs so little to take an action surely this must be the way to go.

The problem is proving the worth of the missing metal, from my experience should the plumber defend then it will be ruled in favor of the defendant, unless the value of the missing items is clearly established and it went missing because of the plumbers actions. Very hard to prove since the metal was stored on the claiments property and it had no assigned value other than a guesstimate, the judge would likely want proof of the value of the metal(a receipt, 3 quotes on its value or some such). As i'm sure the metal would of been taken to a well known scrap merchant and a reciept, dated a the vehicle reg the metal was carried in, with a valid waste transfer license and the appropriate tax paid on the gain.

heating-eng

natmid wrote: »

Before the plumber started we asked him to save all the copper for us to dispose of as a scappy had estimated it at about £700 worth.

Went to house and no copper to be seen, spoke to him and he said that he gave it to some scrap men who came around looking for metal, along with the old iron pipes, old boiler etc.
What should I do next? We are basically £700 down now, surely as a plumber he would have known the value of it? Or at least had a rough idea.

Must be a very big house. i took a full system out a few weeks back ,including cylinder and lots of copper and i got about £270 in scrap.
I tell my customers at the start of the job that i will be taking all rubbish and srcap away from every job.
if a customer wanted to keep it then i would adjust the price, as i knock some money off the job for the scrap valve when quoting.