Non-Halal kebab meat

kaka72

bluemoon wrote:

Excellent post, kaka72 - you have a very clear, straight-forward posting style.

I'm actually vegan, so this doesn't make any difference to the choices I make but just out of interest, would you mind clarifying something?

You say that many halal people prefer to stun the animal. In this case, what is the difference between halal meat and non-halal, other than the former being blessed?

Also, since both are hung up to bleed, is there any difference here - i.e. is the halal meat hung for longer?

Hi, they are not meant to stun the animals actually and would not admit to it! The animal should have no stun for halal meat but..........alot do.
Glad you have found the info helpful. Also there is no difference about how the carcass is treated afterwards. Also I had read in the post that Halal lambs/ ewes were organic and treated differently before hand..........wrong. They are bought and come in, they could be for halal or normal slaughter.

Maybe some people here are getting a little confused with the Jewish slaughter, that meat is treated differently afterwards. The veins and vessels are removed from the meat and they tend not to have the forequater meat as this is to hard to remove everything. This is then resold.

rockykabir

I mentioned the BNP link as that (along with the two other links) were the only links you've posted. This was in response to the post you made as below:

amosworks wrote:

I would again like to point out that nobody has yet posted any pro-Halal evidence whatsoever. It seems that those of you who point out I have posted no links seem to have slightly overlooked this on your side of the argument.

You then had the audacity to state that we did fudge all in terms of research(!). I would say that posting anything from such a organisation does not particularly help your credibility - and it may be perceived that your decision to avoid halal food is in fact influenced by other factors other than animal cruelty.

(apologies as this post is a bit long...I hope my efforts helps you though)

Having done quite a bit of research for my thesis during my masters (on a completely different topic btw), I accept that there are always difference of opinions regarding particular fields. In terms of science research, this maybe down to the particular methodology of data measurement used by the researchers - what one concluded in one paper may be entirely different in another paper. Additionally, and this is sadly the case within many industries, there may be outside factors/pressures which influence how the conclusions of the studies are perceived.

Difference/Similarities between the two methods

The captive bolt pistol is used to effectively destroy the celebrum of the brain so that the animal in question loses conciousness and the ability to feel any pain. When done correctly, the results are effective. The animal (eerily) freezes still and this facilitates the slaughtering - however this is not always the case. There are many conditions (that aren't readily measureable) affecting the effectiveness of the method such as the thickness of the skull (which increases the electrical resistance). Sometimes the animal needs to be stunned more than once and the suffering is evident.

As mentioned previously, with (proper) Halal/Kosher slaughter methods, "the single swift sharp blade cuts the vessels of the neck, thus disconnecting the flow of the blood to the nerve in the brain responsible for pain." However, unfortunately, this isn't always the case as the ill-trained may not use a sharp or long enough knife that'll effectively severe the main vessels thus causing pain to the animal. This is frowned upon in both teachings of Judaism and Islam but is unfortunately the case among a few bad apples (as it is with any other methodology). To my understanding, the main Halal meat committees have already undertaken extensive precautions in ensuring that this is a rare occurence.

There are a few practical differences between the two. With the captive bolt pistol method, the stunned animal stays practically still thus facilitating the slaughter. With the "traditional" methods, the animal post-reflexes (please refer to my earlier post regarding these involuntary reflexes) can be erratic and powerful - and has known to cause injury to workers in many slaughter houses. You can perhaps see why the industry may prefer the use of the stunning method due to employee health and safety.

But how about the welfare of the animal?

Many refer to a study done by Professor Wilhelm Schulze and Dr. Hazim at the School of Veterinary Medicine, Hannover University in Germany regarding animal welfare during slaughter methods (Amosworks, a lil research job for you - how bout checking whether these people exists ). The EEG reports suggest that the time taken for the brain to become senseless (so to speak) is actually greater with the bolt stunning than the "traditional" method if done correctly. Again, for our own benefit, I will like to see your research papers which claim otherwise as it is always helpful to gain another perspective on the matter. What I will say is that studies such as this was primarily used by the German's federal administrative tribunal to block demands by animal welfare groups to ban the traditional methods. This somewhat makes this minor forum thread irrelevant anyway as our scope is no way near that of a dedicated government body.

Draining of the blood...ewwwww!

The draining of the blood does sound a bit morbid but there are a couple of health benefits for the consumer. The reservoir of blood contains a lot of pathogens and waste products - and this can be particularly dangerous and unhealthy if the meat is served rare/medium rare. The bolt stunning effectively results in the animal suffering a cardiac arrest and thus reduces the outgoing blood drain. Additionally, salt and pepper haemorrhaging (i.e. bursting of small blood vessels) caused by the shock further reduces outgoing blood.

I thought I should mention it as it may be helpful to others. I think I'm done with discussing this matter anyway as it is obvious that I'm not getting anywhere with the OP. But I guess as the infamous Graham always used to say in Blind Date...The choice is yours

mooncalf

So if you ask them if the meat is halal, do you also ask them if the meat is kosher? Cause if you have issues with one you should have issues with the other as well!

tr3mor

mooncalf wrote:

So if you ask them if the meat is halal, do you also ask them if the meat is kosher? Cause if you have issues with one you should have issues with the other as well!

I don't think this is relevant. Outside of specific Jewish areas have you ever seen a Kosher takeaway? A huge number of takeaways are run by Muslims, whether they be a Turkish kebab shop or a Pakistani curry house, these are all likely to serve halal food.

To be honest this whole thread has annoyed me.

The OP should've just asked for recipes so he could use the best organic free range meat sourced locally to make his kebabs. It would've made the thread a whole lot easier.

bluemoon_3

tr3mor wrote:

To be honest this whole thread has annoyed me.

The OP should've just asked for recipes so he could use the best organic free range meat sourced locally to make his kebabs. It would've made the thread a whole lot easier.

I suggested this back on page one (as did you, I see). Whether intentional or not, some readers, including myself, have picked up on an apparent subtext in the OP's posts which has less to do with cooking or animal welfare and more to do with an axe to grind.

I'd like to think we're wrong, but doing things like listing the schools doesn't help matters. Amos, didn't it make you stop and think when you realised that you had linked to the BNP in support of an argument (whatever that argument was supposed to be - I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by doing that because it only seems to support the undercurrent of prejudice)?

Edited: to remove my b!tchy response to the OP's general attitude. I so rarely lose my patience, and I always regret it afterwards when I do.

foreign_correspondent

If you are so concerned about animal cruelty either buy organic meat or go veggie.
And on no account shuould you ever eat a supermarket chicken (unless organic or free range) - there is so much more to be concerned about there through the entirity of its short like never mind its slaughter.
Also only buy organic and free range eggs. Every time you buy intensively farmed eggs you support the industry where chickens are mistreated dismally. Really, halal slaughter is the last thing you need to worry about.
And whilst you are so concerned and ethical, dont completely undermine your own credibility by posting links to the BNP!
Get some perspective here - have some consideration for human welfare first and foremost!

rockykabir

Well said Foreign Correspondant

Plastic_Manc

amosworks wrote:

Hi folks,

I was debating whether to post this thread here or in the Green & Ethical MS thread, but decided here because I'm sure you're all much better cooks

Basically I absolutely love my kebabs and have one every weekend but I'm very worried that Halal meat in them really goes against my principals on cruelty to animals. So a few weeks ago I decided to give up kebabs pending a more ethical solution.

Unfortunately, I have yet to find one and I have no idea how to go about trying to create kebab-type meat that I can use in my own kebabs. It would be nice to be able to whip one up as close as possible to take-out style kebabs and shove it in the fridge until I get home, so I can microwave it straight away to reheat it.

How do I go about creating the type of meat that you find in kebabs? It's quite flat and stringy, rather moist and not cooked so it's overly done. I'm not even sure which meats to look at to start this, let alone how to prepare and then cook them to emulate how a kebab house does.

Any and all help, suggestions and ideas most appreciated.

Amos

Amos,

I always loved Donner Kebabs, even though I'd heard about how Halal meat is made and that the content of donner meat includes holton hair (this may not be true). The sensation of the heat steaming through the naan bread, covered in luscious sauce.

I became vegetarian on 2/1/00 and the biggest threat to my new lifestyle was what to eat when I am pished and wobbling in a kebab house.

Here are my 2 favourites...

1) Paneer Tikka Kebab with salad and extra corriander - Panneer is a fryable cheese a bit like hallumi, contrasts brilliantly with tikka sauce.

2) Aloo Tikka kebab - aloo tikka is a potatoe patty so loaded with spices it doesn't have the dullness of normal veggie kebabs.

Depending on where you live, most kebab houses do 'requests'. I was in a kebab house in Hull and the woman behind the till asked me what I wanted. I explained my vegetarian disposition and she offerred to make a veggie kebab for me. It was veg and spud in sauce in nahn bread with salad and was amazing.

All the above is completely unappealing if you are not vegetarian but I would urge you to try at least one of my recomendations. Try them a few times and you may (like me) eventually find them more appealing than a donner kebab.

Hope this has been helpful.

PM.

PS - veggie kebabs are normally cheaper than donner, chicken or other meat babs, so I hope Martin Lewis puts this in his weekly email:rotfl:

**purplemoon**

Plastic_Manc wrote:

Amos,

All the above is completely unappealing if you are not vegetarian but I would urge you to try at least one of my recomendations.

Not necessarily, you don't need to be a veggie to eat and enjoy vegetarian food

Plastic_Manc

**purplemoon** wrote:

Not necessarily, you don't need to be a veggie to eat and enjoy vegetarian food

well when I turned veggie i dint crave the classics such as bacon barmcake, roast chicken, proper hamburger etc...

For me it was donner kebabs and flame chicken kebabs

Aloo tikka and panneer wer awesome substitutes

the thread went too political dinnit!