The Great Stripper Issue

alleycat`

Some of the replies on here make me wonder how the "chippendales" and their like ever get any business.

Obviously only men objectify women?
Are the rules somehow different in reverse?

I happen to work late at night quite often and "hen nights" are obviously very sedate things.....

If someone is making a legitimate living doing this and nobody gets hurt then i, personally, don't mind either way.

I understand the point some people are making about trafficed women (and men). However, in many instances, they are not the same thing.

Most of the time things like this are "straw men" for our own insecurities.

As to the OP

if you don't like it, then you have your choices to make.
Obviously this person is the person you are with warts and all.
This might be one of the warts you have to decide you do or don't like.

I'm sure i'll get hammered for my point of view

I have no idea what any of this has got to do with saving money?
Are european strippers cheaper after air fair and hotels?

euronorris

Tropez wrote: »

Your link is only relevent if you can provide any evidence that any of the men who regard stripping as a bit of fun also use the services of prostitutes and have the same attitude to that.

Well, I expect that anyone who considers using prostitution as a 'bit of fun' (a the guy in the article did), would surely consider stripping in the same regard.

However, that is not to say that all men who consider stripping as a bit of fun will regard prostitution in the same way.

I know my OH isn't too fazed by strippers, but certainly doesn't see prostitution as bit of fun. He does think it has it's place in society, for single guys only of course, but more for those who have terrible or no luck with the ladies or who travel almost constantly for work and are therefore unable to maintain a steady relationship. They still have needs.

euronorris

Alleycat - the financial aspect of this would be that the OP said that they can't even afford for her OH to go on this stag do.

I would've argued it from that point of view first with my OH, and asked if he could arrange to do something separately with the stag in the UK which is cheaper. I'm sure he wouldn't be the only friend of the stag who can't afford a weekend away like this right now, so those that wanted to do something cheaper, could do it in the UK with the stag. They could still see strippers, so OP's OH wouldn't (hopefully) feel like he's missing out on all the fun stuff, and the OP would probably feel more comfortable with the idea of just strippers.

OP - haven't from you in ages, is this something you could suggest to your OH? Have you already tried? How are you? How are things between you and OH?

Tropez

euronorris wrote: »

Well, I expect that anyone who considers using prostitution as a 'bit of fun' (a the guy in the article did), would surely consider stripping in the same regard.

However, that is not to say that all men who consider stripping as a bit of fun will regard prostitution in the same way.

I know my OH isn't too fazed by strippers, but certainly doesn't see prostitution as bit of fun. He does think it has it's place in society, for single guys only of course, but more for those who have terrible or no luck with the ladies or who travel almost constantly for work and are therefore unable to maintain a steady relationship. They still have needs.

Yes, I am sure that there are people who consider prostitution a bit of fun but I don't feel it is appropriate to be using the plight of enslaved women as a tool in a discussion about stripping, as some (not you) have chosen to do here. As I have said, there isn't actually any evidence that any of the men here have supported prostitution but there are undoubtedly plenty of men who do, or the Amsterdam Wallen, the Shipper's Quarter in Antwerp, the Wohnungspuffs in Dusseldorf and many other such locations wouldn't exist.

I can see the requirement for prostitution, although I have no desire to ever patronise one myself. The concept in Netherlands and Belgium of legalising, taxing and regulating the industry seems very attractive from an economic point of view but then the reason for the mass shutdown of kamers (those little rooms that they work from) by the conservative city government beginning in the mid-noughties is largely due to the fact that their regulations have failed and the criminals were running things in the Wallen.

I have visited the Wallen myself as curiosity. I find the whole thing very creepy in a window shopping for flesh kind of way. There were certainly some very beautiful women offering their services but it was far from a turn on; truth be told, I felt kind of sorry for them.

Amber07

Well...this is a bit more advanced than the 'Stripper boat' discussion last week!:eek:

I can understand why the OP is upset - the thought that her OH was planning on going off and viewing all this while his friends got up to who-knows-what (OP mentioned 'extra services')as a bit of a shock

I don't believe for a second all the other girlfriends/wives are okay with it - I just think they are under the impression it's a normal 'stag do' I bet if they had all the details about the lesbian show there would be a few questions asked! I dislike the 'boys will be boys' attitude that some people have in general...why do women have to grow up but men have excuses to still be 'one of the lads'?

Regardless of whether any of us think strippers are right or wrong, this comes down to how the OP feels about it and how her partner is responding to her feelings (and how she is responding to his) if they can't sit down and discuss it, both explaining their feelings on the matter then there's not much hope for the future

For the record, I wouldn't want my husband going on a stag do like that, and he is aware of that as we have discussed what our relationship boundaries are. However I would hope he would turn it down out of respect for my feelings as opposed to me 'telling him' he couldn't go. I would never stop him, but would lose so much respect for him for wanting to go to something like that, that I don't think we would last long afterwards.

Although many women believe their men won't ever cheat, (and indeed, many won't) but who knows what happens with some after numerous alcoholic drinks / peer pressure and the rule 'what happens on the stag stays on the stag'.

I work with predominantly males and the things some get up to which their wives know nothing about is pretty shocking. One was at a live sex show in a local pub a few months ago (it wasn't marketed as such though)...if his gf knew she would freak. And there was 'audience participation' :eek:


At the end of the day, it's each to their own. I wouldn't try and tell someone who doesn't mind their partner watching a lesbian show that they are wrong, so in the same way I woudn't think it right for them to inform the OP she is wrong for not trusting her OH because she has such strong feelings against it. I hope they can work through this - and that the OP lets us know the outcome!

anguk

Apologies if it's already been posted but I've just read this on the BBC site and thought of this thread.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8457172.stm

Edit: oops just read back and someone has already posted that link.

Lunar_Eclipse

Gavin83 wrote: »

Is it because you feel it's degrading to women, because you don't want your partner seeing another woman naked or something else entirely?

I think it's a lot of things wrapped up together. Degradation to women is a possibility, but not a certainty. It's not basic nudity, although I wouldn't be happy seeing him lusting after another woman, clothes or not.

A large portion of my feelings fall into the something else.

In my possibly limited experience of strip clubs and the sex industry in general (!!!!!! movies, erotic websites, Ann Summers, sex shops), I haven't seen or heard of anything that involves people that I don't interpret as being extremely cheap and tacky, lacking in style, class and sophistication. Because of this, I have a massive issue in paying money, or wanting to participate in something that I consider low quality entertainment.

I appreciate that this is based on my own experience; it is entirely possible that there are well trained, beautiful, highly talented, intelligent men & women out there that earn a lot of money in this line of work, I just haven't seen any.

euronorris

Tropez wrote: »

Yes, I am sure that there are people who consider prostitution a bit of fun but I don't feel it is appropriate to be using the plight of enslaved women as a tool in a discussion about stripping, as some (not you) have chosen to do here. As I have said, there isn't actually any evidence that any of the men here have supported prostitution but there are undoubtedly plenty of men who do, or the Amsterdam Wallen, the Shipper's Quarter in Antwerp, the Wohnungspuffs in Dusseldorf and many other such locations wouldn't exist.

Why not? It isn't just prostitution that women are forced into, stripping comes into it too.

Also, even if they aren't forced into it, I'm sure there are also a number who hate it, but feel it is their only option. That must be soul destroying for them.

I can see the requirement for prostitution, although I have no desire to ever patronise one myself. The concept in Netherlands and Belgium of legalising, taxing and regulating the industry seems very attractive from an economic point of view but then the reason for the mass shutdown of kamers (those little rooms that they work from) by the conservative city government beginning in the mid-noughties is largely due to the fact that their regulations have failed and the criminals were running things in the Wallen.

Nha, nor does the OH. I know he hasn't used one before either, as I asked him once! He wasn't particularly pleased about even being asked, but his brother had just openly admitted to using one himself, and seeing as they get on so well, and used to do a lot of things together, I thought that it could have been a possibility, so I asked.

It's not just the economic factor that comes into it. Part of the reason for all the regulation was to try and eliminate the trafficking part. How successful that was, I don't know. I think though, that perhaps the regulations work better in other towns. Amsterdam is always going to be a city of excess now, thanks to the tourists (ie stag and hen do's from all over the world) it attracts.

For example, the sale of cannabis has been regulated. Part of the reasoning was to stop criminals from profiting, and stop casual users from being exposed to and offered harder substances. It works well in most cities and the rules are followed diligintly, or they are shutdown. But....in Amsterdam, you still have plenty of people offering you harder drugs as you walk around the city.

I have visited the Wallen myself as curiosity. I find the whole thing very creepy in a window shopping for flesh kind of way. There were certainly some very beautiful women offering their services but it was far from a turn on; truth be told, I felt kind of sorry for them.

I'm always taking visitors on a little tour of the red light district, but I'm really only ever comfortable when my OH (or other males) are with me. Otherwise I tend to face questions such as 'Hey darlings, wanna be in my porno movie?'. Not exactly welcoming for me or my friends.

Plus, like you, I feel quite sorry for the girls in the window. It's one thing to be comfortable with accepting money in exchange for sex, but it must be horrid to be leered at all day, having guys throw insults at you day in, day out. I see it all the time. Not to mention that most of their clients will be pretty drunk before they even get to them. Eugh. Just horrid.

I take it you didn't see the girls on a Sunday then. There is a vast difference. I can only assume that the window/kamer is cheaper then, so only the prettiest/most popular girls can afford Fri and Sat nights.

Kamer = Room. Literal translation, so it makes sense they call them kamers.

Tropez

euronorris wrote: »

Why not? It isn't just prostitution that women are forced into, stripping comes into it too.

Licensed, legitimate strip clubs, whether they're in the UK or Lithuania, are required to adhere to European and other International laws. While some poor business does go on in some places, the chances of meeting the victim of such practices in strip clubs without purposely going looking for it are slim. The vast majority of strip clubs, throughout the EU at least, are above board and all the statistics serve to confirm that.

The fact is that there is much, much more money for the criminal gangs that run people trafficking in pornography and prostitution than there is in strippers. A stripper might make circa €50k a year. A prostitute can pull that in a quarter of the time and it is much more expensive to run a strip club.

But moreover, I find the suggestion by certain parties here that I, and other men, who do not view strip clubs with the same venom as they do are somehow contributing to a vile, illegal trade to be utterly abhorrent. It is deeply inappropriate to use an article based solely on the illegal trafficking of women for use as prostitutes to make such a suggestion. It is, quite simply, a straw man argument.

Also, even if they aren't forced into it, I'm sure there are also a number who hate it, but feel it is their only option. That must be soul destroying for them.

There are always options to change one's life path but if they choose not to see it then it isn't the responsibility of anybody else to help them.

Many, many people work in jobs that they hate because they're afraid, or they're gutless, or they simply never bothered researching how they could change their lot in life. Such an argument is not the exclusive domain of the lapdancer.

Hell, ever since I got a new boss two weeks ago I've been systematically harassed by said boss. If I choose to stay here, then that is nobody's problem but my own. I know I could quit anytime I want.

I take it you didn't see the girls on a Sunday then. There is a vast difference. I can only assume that the window/kamer is cheaper then, so only the prettiest/most popular girls can afford Fri and Sat nights.

I can't remember what day it was. I know it wasn't at night because I have better things to do than be accosted by the 90,000 drug dealers that descend upon the area during the mid-evening time.

Kamer = Room. Literal translation, so it makes sense they call them kamers.

I did know that. I was clarifying what a kamer, in that sense, was in case you didn't know.

euronorris

Tropez wrote: »

Licensed, legitimate strip clubs, whether they're in the UK or Lithuania, are required to adhere to European and other International laws. While some poor business does go on in some places, the chances of meeting the victim of such practices in strip clubs without purposely going looking for it are slim. The vast majority of strip clubs, throughout the EU at least, are above board and all the statistics serve to confirm that.

It's slim in such places, I agree, but there is always a chance and for that reason, I'm not that keen on such places. I wish there was some way to ensure the club you entered was operating totally above board, but even with strict laws, it's impossible.

The fact is that there is much, much more money for the criminal gangs that run people trafficking in pornography and prostitution than there is in strippers. A stripper might make circa €50k a year. A prostitute can pull that in a quarter of the time and it is much more expensive to run a strip club.

I agree.

But moreover, I find the suggestion by certain parties here that I, and other men, who do not view strip clubs with the same venom as they do are somehow contributing to a vile, illegal trade to be utterly abhorrent. It is deeply inappropriate to use an article based solely on the illegal trafficking of women for use as prostitutes to make such a suggestion. It is, quite simply, a straw man argument.


I see your point. I was thinking of it more in terms of the OP (where there is the mention of the live lesbo sex show etc), but I understand where you're coming from now.

There are always options to change one's life path but if they choose not to see it then it isn't the responsibility of anybody else to help them.

Sometimes people need help, psychologically. It's as simple as that and I do think that we all have a responsibility to each other, to some degree. If someone is working as a stripper, is deeply unhappy, but doesn't have the strength to pull themselves out of that situation, then I feel help should be available to them to do that.

I'm not saying that should get everything for free, from that point onwards. But, sometimes, a little helping hand can go a long, long way!

Many, many people work in jobs that they hate because they're afraid, or they're gutless, or they simply never bothered researching how they could change their lot in life. Such an argument is not the exclusive domain of the lapdancer.

I know, and I would say that such people also require help.

Hell, ever since I got a new boss two weeks ago I've been systematically harassed by said boss. If I choose to stay here, then that is nobody's problem but my own. I know I could quit anytime I want.

Sorry to hear that work is that bad for you right now. I hope it improves soon.

But, from another point of view, why should you have to quit that job? It isn't the job you hate, but the boss. Do you have internal procedures you can follow in order to try and resolve the issue?

Although, I do understand that sometimes, it's best to cut your losses and move on.

I can't remember what day it was. I know it wasn't at night because I have better things to do than be accosted by the 90,000 drug dealers that descend upon the area during the mid-evening time.

Hahaha. Do what I do, as a former Londoner, and don't make eye contact. No one offers you anything if you don't make eye contact! My OH couldn't believe how oblivious I was to it all the first time I came to Amsterdam! :rotfl:No one offered me anything that first day as I wasn't looking at any of them!

I did know that. I was clarifying what a kamer, in that sense, was in case you didn't know.

Ah well, either you spent a fair bit of time here or you have a good memory! It's good to have explained it anyway, as I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't know what a kamer is.

Still learning Dutch here