Ratting on benefit cheats

cit_k

L-Jay wrote: »

The whole point of this government focus on benefit fraud is not to increase money for the public purse, if it were tax evasion would be a much more productive approach. Rather, along with the concerted demonisation of claimants in the rightwing press, the aim is to try and keep the eyes of the populace focused on the poor, in that old divide and rule strategy beloved of the ruling class.

Has divide and rule ever been more evident? Tell people to be afraid. Tell people to be wary of their neightbours. Tell people to judge their neighbours and that if they are seen to have 'more' than they should it must be because they are scamming the system.

yes, its all about propaganda.

Sometimes, I wonder, if the powers that be, wether they labour or the coallition, use mein-kampf as their textbook for policy on propaganda.

Hitler himself, summed up how propaganda should work, and it is just as relavent to todays benefit propaganda as it was to his use back then.

Mein Kampf contains the blueprint of later Nazi propaganda efforts. Assessing his audience, Hitler writes in chapter IV:

"Propaganda must always address itself to the broad masses of the people. (...) All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. (...) The art of propaganda consists precisely in being able to awaken the imagination of the public through an appeal to their feelings, in finding the appropriate psychological form that will arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses. The broad masses of the people are not made up of diplomats or professors of public jurisprudence nor simply of persons who are able to form reasoned judgment in given cases, but a vacillating crowd of human children who are constantly wavering between one idea and another. (...) The great majority of a nation is so feminine in its character and outlook that its thought and conduct are ruled by sentiment rather than by sober reasoning. This sentiment, however, is not complex, but simple and consistent. It is not highly differentiated, but has only the negative and positive notions of love and hatred, right and wrong, truth and falsehood."[5]

As to the methods to be employed, he explains:

"Propaganda must not investigate the truth objectively and, in so far as it is favourable to the other side, present it according to the theoretical rules of justice; yet it must present only that aspect of the truth which is favourable to its own side. (...) The receptive powers of the masses are very restricted, and their understanding is feeble. On the other hand, they quickly forget. Such being the case, all effective propaganda must be confined to a few bare essentials and those must be expressed as far as possible in stereotyped formulas. These slogans should be persistently repeated until the very last individual has come to grasp the idea that has been put forward. (...) Every change that is made in the subject of a propagandist message must always emphasize the same conclusion. The leading slogan must of course be illustrated in many ways and from several angles, but in the end one must always return to the assertion of the same formula."

(src)

holidaysforme

L-Jay wrote: »

The Mangler Please remember that those who shout the loudest may still be in a minority. Many, many of us realise that our health is the biggest blessing of all. Many of us have some inkling of how difficult things must be, and far from looking down on you, respect your courage for getting through day after painful day.


The whole point of this government focus on benefit fraud is not to increase money for the public purse, if it were tax evasion would be a much more productive approach. Rather, along with the concerted demonisation of claimants in the rightwing press, the aim is to try and keep the eyes of the populace focused on the poor, in that old divide and rule strategy beloved of the ruling class.
Has divide and rule ever been more evident? Tell people to be afraid. Tell people to be wary of their neightbours. Tell people to judge their neighbours and that if they are seen to have 'more' than they should it must be because they are scamming the system.
While you're busy twitching your nets foregt that Vodafone owed £6,000,000,000 and did a deal with George Osborn, to pay about 17% of it. Forget George Osborn who lies about the amount of fraud by tripling the actual amount is the PROUD beneficiary of a tax avoidance scheme which has £7,000,000

Forget the likes of Sir Philip Green avoiding paying hundreds of millions of pounds in tax in 2005, after awarding his wife a £1,000,200,000 dividend – the largest ever in corporate history. Because Mrs Green lives in Monaco, she saved some £300m in tax – money that the UK Treasury missed out on.
Yeah forget all that....

When i read posts like this it restores my faith in humanity:)

shikoku

A lie told often enough becomes truth - this must be the Daily Mails' motto.

dseventy

Why is it that whenever people talk about benefit cheats, a section of the populace suddenly start pointing to MPs, large companies (tax aviodance) and rich people!

Because fraud or immoral activities happen in one area, does that condone it in another? Or should both be tackled?

Prinzessilein wrote: »

In an ideal world, this would be true. Sadly the benefit world is far from fair.
.......
But I would ask that anyone who is considering reporting someone for suspected benefit fraud, please be sure of your facts.

I see your post and it looks like a rough ride.

But thats the world for you. People get suspended from work with no recourse. People get accused of crimes they did not do.

But does an accusation not warrant an investigation? Is it correct that accussations get ignored because of the potential impact on the persons circs?

Sorry it does not.

You are asking for the state to intervene and assist in your life. You therefore play to their tune, warts and all.

D70

L-Jay

dseventy wrote: »

Why is it that whenever people talk about benefit cheats, a section of the populace suddenly start pointing to MPs, large companies (tax aviodance) and rich people!

Because fraud or immoral activities happen in one area, does that condone it in another? Or should both be tackled?



I see your post and it looks like a rough ride.

But thats the world for you. People get suspended from work with no recourse. People get accused of crimes they did not do.

But does an accusation not warrant an investigation? Is it correct that accussations get ignored because of the potential impact on the persons circs?

Sorry it does not.

You are asking for the state to intervene and assist in your life. You therefore play to their tune, warts and all.

D70

I think most of us would have a lot more sympathy for pouring additional resources into investigating benefit fraud if there had been a concerted government attempt to tackle corporate and personal tax evasion, which costs the country a lot more money and would seem to be obviously a higher priority than clawing back a few quid a week from people who get their money from the state anyway. Benefit fraud is still wrong, but the aggressive pursuit of benefit fraud (and error as if it were fraud, which is even more concerning) and not tax evasion sends a clear message about the kind of fraud the government is prepared to turn a blind eye to. Without an equally strong pursuit of tax evasion by the wealthy and by corporations, and closing tax loopholes it strongly suggests that fraud is something to be condoned as long as you're One Of Us.

Personally, I can't possibly support a system of anonymous tip-offs, no backdated payments even when the tip-off is found to be malicious or unsubstantiated, and stopping benefits as soon as you get a job or find a partner or are accused (anonymously) of being a benefit cheat, which just disincentivizes people to find work or form stable long-term relationships.

Esoog

cit_k wrote: »

yes, its all about propaganda.

Sometimes, I wonder, if the powers that be, wether they labour or the coallition, use mein-kampf as their textbook for policy on propaganda.

Hitler himself, summed up how propaganda should work, and it is just as relavent to todays benefit propaganda as it was to his use back then.


(src)

I once asked the school librarian if they had any copies of Mein Kampf, she was less than impressed

I should add I was only joking :A

SingleSue

I believe the point you are missing is that genuine claimants do have something to fear if someone maliciously reports them for fraud.

Ok, they know they are in the clear but in the meantime, they are treated as guilty, they are cut off from their lifelines (rent payments, council tax, benefits etc), while the investigation is ongoing

So they do have something to fear.....extreme stress and no money at all to survive on.

It is ok to say that they have asked for state intervention and that they should expect to play by their tune etc but the reality is that for those falsely accused, it has a far reaching consequence....no financial support until the case has been investigated.

krisskross

Prinzessilein wrote: »

It angers me that a small handful of people abuse the system. (And it is only a few - don't believe the benefit-bashing hype). But I would ask that anyone who is considering reporting someone for suspected benefit fraud, please be sure of your facts.

I doubt this statement very much. I would suggest that we all know someone who is claiming benefits dubiously to say the least. Quite frankly MSE itself has become a fraud's bible with advice on how to maximise benefits by completing forms detailing every day as a worst possible scenario, by advising what symptoms can be exaggerated and not disproved, by sharing symptoms.

Just from what I have learned on these very boards I reckon I could claim disability benefits successfully for depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ME, fibromyalgia etc.

It is not necessary to be totally sure of the facts...a well founded suspicion is enough. It is the benefit fraud people who will have access to the facts and it is them who will investigate.

Why do you think a big crackdown on disability benefit claimants is proposed? Because there is so much suspected fraud in this area would be my opinion.

I don't agrree with anyone being reported simply out of spite but surely you can all see that some people are simply taking the micky out of taxpayers.

cit_k

krisskross wrote: »

Just from what I have learned on these very boards I reckon I could claim disability benefits successfully for depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ME, fibromyalgia etc.

You could claim, chances of being entitled to them after medical would be slim to none probably though.

The_mangler

krisskross wrote: »

I doubt this statement very much. I would suggest that we all know someone who is claiming benefits dubiously to say the least. Quite frankly MSE itself has become a fraud's bible with advice on how to maximise benefits by completing forms detailing every day as a worst possible scenario, by advising what symptoms can be exaggerated and not disproved, by sharing symptoms.

Just from what I have learned on these very boards I reckon I could claim disability benefits successfully for depression, anxiety, panic attacks, ME, fibromyalgia etc.

It is not necessary to be totally sure of the facts...a well founded suspicion is enough. It is the benefit fraud people who will have access to the facts and it is them who will investigate.

Why do you think a big crackdown on disability benefit claimants is proposed? Because there is so much suspected fraud in this area would be my opinion.

I don't agrree with anyone being reported simply out of spite but surely you can all see that some people are simply taking the micky out of taxpayers.

I refer you to the link I have posted three times now:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press-releases/2010/oct-2010/dwp138-10-181010.shtml

For the hard of understanding, the important points are at the bottom of that page, entitled notes to editors. This comes from the DWP themselves. But I guess that still wont be enough for some people.